In this episode of The Physical Product Movement, we’re joined by Mark Samuel, the founder and CEO of IWON Organics.

Mark reveals how he was able to spot a need in the market and develop a product to fit this market opportunity.

He also shares strategies to develop wholesale and retail partnerships, and his approach to rolling up his sleeves and just getting things done.

Listen on Apple Podcasts here or Spotify here.


Ken: Welcome to the Physical Product Movement, a podcast by Fiddle, we share stories of the world’s most ambitious and exciting physical product brands to help you capitalize on the monumental change in how, why and where consumers buy. I’m your host, Ken Ojuka.

In this episode, I talk with Mark Samuel, Founder and CEO of  IWON Organics, a brand of flavor infused snacks made from plant-based proteins, like peas, beans, and Brown rice. In our discussion, we talk about our Mark was able to spot the need in the market and develop a product to fit the market opportunity. We talk about some of his strategies to develop wholesale and retail partnerships.

We also talked about the value of gaining experience by simply rolling up your sleeves and just doing it. Mark is a great founder with some incredible insights. I really enjoyed the conversation and I hope that you do too. Yeah. Hey Mark. How are you doing? Thanks for joining me.

Mark: I’m doing well. Thanks for having me.

Ken: Yeah. Hey, just to kick things off, uh, you want to share quotes, um, that maybe you live by or this impacted you? 

Mark: Oh, I have no idea. I don’t do quotes. I don’t do reading and I don’t do quotes. So how about just, I’m fortunate to have woken up this morning. God’s given me another day on the plan. 

Ken: Hey, good enough. That might be the best quote, actually. So good stuff. Um, so why don’t you just tell us about what you did before I won organics and of course, we’ll, we’ll get into your, your product and what you do now, but I just want to get a little bit of a history, 

Mark: Uh, sure. Uh, before I went organics, uh, I had founded a sport bag manufacturing company called shit Mark.

And our main category that we were in was meal management bags. So bags that had an accessible meal container or. A cooler within the bag. 

Ken: Cool. Cool. And, and, uh, it looks like you’ve been into kind of health and fitness for, for a long time. Is that just something that you’ve just been into? 

Mark: Uh, yeah, I’m a lifelong, uh, health and wellness enthusiast.

Uh, and so the last few ventures that have been involved with have been in the health and wellness space, which has been lovely, uh, as they always say, you want to be doing something that you’re passionate about. And so, uh, I’ve just been fortunate to, to be involved with a few brands, um, that I was really, really into.

And, you know, this being the most passionate one that I’ve found so far.

Ken: Okay. Awesome. So why don’t you just tell us a little bit about what I won, uh, organics is and, uh, what makes you guys unique in the market? 

Mark: We’re a plant-based snack company. Uh, our core ingredients are lagoon based, so peas and beans.

Uh, so we have a higher protein and fiber level, uh, when it comes to our salty snacks. And then of course, what everybody knows us for we’re organic certified, and we just have amazing bold flavors combined with our products. 

Ken: Okay. Awesome. Awesome. So you were the founder, is that correct?

Mark: That’s correct.

Ken: So what led, why don’t you take us back a little bit?

What led you to enter this market and to take an interest in this product?

Mark: Sure as I was sort of phasing out a framework, uh, I really wanted to get in food and beverage. And I saw there was a white space in what I consider to be the savory side of protein snacks and not protein snacks in the, in the sense that most would know it such as bars, uh, and or things that are really, really super high in protein.

Just things that had a higher elevated level of protein that potentially come from, uh, You know, an isolated source such as a pea protein and or Brown rice protein, uh, and really start navigating that, uh, arena. And that’s how I found myself into developing a protein ship, uh, as our original product. Uh, and then that was 2016 and then fast forward, 2018.

Uh, I had gotten two extruded snacks. So our core two snacks today are a POS and a step, uh, both again, uh, lagoon based, uh, with peas and beans and rice. 

Ken: Okay. So you mentioned that you really wanted to get into food and beverage. Was there anything that led up to that or did you see an opportunity or what led to that, that interest? What was the motivation. 

Mark: There’s just a better economics, I would say. And I felt as though I could build a platform that I could, could just continue with for a long period of time, I’ve done multiple things in my 19 year career. And I saw that a health and wellness platform on the food and beverage side would probably be best suited for me because there are so many great things that, that are related to the things that I enjoy doing such as innovation.

Um, and as far as the metrics financially, uh, I had been used to, uh, products and or services where you have a customer and you potentially only have that customer for one or two or three transactions. And I prefer to build on something that has a longer term, uh, interaction with a customer. And that’s, that’s how I found myself here.

Ken: Okay. Cool. So it sounds a little bit like you are sort of the ideal customer for this product. Did you have yourself in mind or were you, were you thinking about a specific segment of the market? 

Mark: Okay. Yeah. You’re always gonna, you should be, uh, creating, uh, a product for yourself. Uh, you know, there was a void that I felt, uh, as far as savory snacks, organic certified plant-based and the like, Um, that would have served a knee for myself.

Uh, I just knew that, that my need, you know, I w I wasn’t the only one out there. So I knew that there was a big market and one that we could, uh, you know, we could target and go after longterm, uh, as far as not just health and wellness, but families. And, uh, and that’s something that we are, we are interested in.

Ken: Awesome. So, are you, where were you on, uh, like a plant-based diet. And are you still, or was that a lot of the motivation for having a plant-based product?

Mark: I was adding more plants foods. Uh, so over the last 10 years, I’ve transitioned into eating more plant foods. Uh, I’m definitely not a vegan. Uh, I’m still a believer in eating meats and things of that nature.

Um, just less of it. Uh, again, everybody has their own. Um, you know, thoughts about nutrition and the, like, I just know what works best for me. And I’m a big believer in that for, for consumers, but I’m also a big believer in balance and balance in all ways, just nutrition exercise, or for media, just your lifestyle in general.

So that comes with food and nutrition as well. So a lot more plant foods entering my license. Uh, and I knew that if I was going to be building a health and wellness platform with regards to foods, I want it to be focused on plants. 

Awesome. So let’s, let’s talk just a little bit about your product development, you know, so, so early on, you know, I, I assume you didn’t have a recipe for this or, or maybe you did.

Ken: Um, can you just tell us about how, how you came up with, with your formula, your, your recipe and, and then, uh, you know, some of the steps that you took in order to actually get your product ready? 

Mark: Sure. Um, uh, you know, just like anything when you’re starting out a business in a new category or whatever, and maybe you just start looking around and researching and finding who’s going to be able to help you.

I knew that we needed a manufacturer. I also knew that manufacturers are what most call co-packers today could potentially help with R and D. And that’s what I was able to do. I was able to, uh, find one that not only believed in what we were doing. Believed in me. And it was going to help us some early R and D.

And we were able to get, uh, that co-packer at the time to produce a chip for us originally, it was a little higher approaching. Uh, then we moved into, but at least it got the ball rolling and it started to educate me on how manufacturers and co-packers work. 

Ken: So a lot of people listening to this might be considering launching their own product.

Do you have any tips for anybody that’s looking for a manufacturer and, uh, you know, maybe some tips on how to best work with a manufacturer? 

Mark: Yeah, never, never, never, never do it. Uh, I’m kind of serious. Um, I, I say that jokingly somewhat, um, because people know me and I say that all the time, Sunni beverage is extremely difficult business.

And if somebody is looking to. I get into this one. I know you had mentioned product just in general, but um, if somebody were looking into food and beverage, they really need to understand the lay of the land, what they’re getting themselves involved with, uh, capital requirements, margin requirements, and just competitive reality of, of what it looks like in our space.

So that’s item one. Two is, if you’re just talking generally about a product, you know, any sort of consumer product research is important and really dialing in and connecting with the right people that are going to help you so that you can navigate all the Oscars that are, can come at you early on in the business.

So, you know, again, it’s, it’s really, it’s really signing yourself in a spot that’s going to avoid, um, early, early obstacles. 

Ken:  Okay. So let’s talk about some of those, those obstacles or some of those challenges, um, that you guys may have run into. Are there any that you could, you could share with us where maybe you learned a couple lessons from, 

Mark: Uh, number one is margin requirements, just like you would know and understand in any business.

I often talk about, you know, there’s terms like Keystone and things about, you know, you’re buying it for $1, you sell it for two and in a retail or South there for four, right. It’s just kind of that. 50% margin requirement. Um, you just need to be super dialed in and understand the financial metrics of operating a business and really, uh, controlling that there’s often a wishful thinking mechanism that approaches most founders.

Whereas they think that they could save money later and, Oh, I’m going to get into higher volumes and I’m going to reduce costs and I’ll keep all of my overhead. Lo that, that all sounds great. It’s highly unlikely that it’s done. And why, what I mean by that is the idea that you will get to that phase that you will get to that level is already hard enough.

So you might as well dial it in, in the beginning, get all your numbers correct. Get all your financials intact so that you have the ability to get to that point in your business. Because if you don’t, you’re probably not going to get there. 

Ken: Right. Right. And some, I also see people doing is just underpricing their product in, in general thinking they’ll make it up in volume or something, but, um, you really do have to dial in those numbers and, uh, kind of take a methodical approach to it.

Um, or else you’re always in for some surprises. 

Mark: Correct. Yeah. I think people, when they’re not only pricing out the product, um, they believe that they need to look at the, the overall set and or environment that they’re sitting in. And either, you know, just you, you often want to undercut or, or combo right below somebody, but in fact, that’s the brand that you’re creating.

The minute you do that. You know, there’s a reason why there are premium brands and we’ll always be premium brands and it’s because they set the standard from the out date. Right. And if you have that sort of thinking and, and you recognize why you are at a price point that you should be and you stick with it and you have the ability to not just sell, but you have the ability to really remain there and have that be part of your brand.

And people kind of confuse that. Um, and don’t pay enough attention to it. 

Ken: Exactly. And, and, and I think that you’re saying this, but I think it directly affects the customer experience with your brand. Right. Um, a lot of people try to have a low price product and then provide, uh, an experience that they just can’t afford to.

And so, yeah, the, the price that you choose directly affects your brand and your product quality. Yeah. So, um, you know, I looked on your website, it looks like you have, uh, six, six different flavors. Um, but was this something that you, you launched with, uh, all these different flavors or did you start with one? How did you think about, about that? 

Mark: Well, we actually launched with five flavors of a chip. And so, um, I don’t believe you need that many. I would say specifically in what we do often is three flavors, maybe four, but you can really keep your skew count low. And I’m a proponent of that, not just early, but you can continue to grow your business on, on fewer skews.

And that’s also another. A value add proposition really for yourself and your business is lower skew counts, allow you to manage easier, allows you to drive your volume and revenue through those fewer skews, which allows you to do all those other great things, which is, you know, buying in bigger volumes of the things that you need.

Uh, and it allows you to manage your business a lot easier. 

Ken: Okay, cool. So let’s talk a little bit about, about fulfillment. Is that something you guys do and how stable warehouse or do you have a fulfillment partner? How do you think about that? 

Mark: Yeah, we have a three PL uh, so we have a warehouse and someone who fulfills for us.

Um, we’ve been very blessed, uh, to find a partner that’s not only been able to. To keep up with what we’re doing, but grow with us and it’d be able to do special projects and the like, and so it’s just a, a sort of a moving element of the business as well. You just want to keep, keep your communication intact, keep it, um, you know, keep it on the up and up because, uh, there are strains that occur, uh, between relationships.

When, when, uh, they’re, you know, both are, are growing, uh, specifically in, uh, In a project like that. Again, it’s not just warehousing, you’re talking about fulfillment. So there’s trucks moving in now. And then nowadays with direct to consumer, you could be talking about hundreds of orders, you know, on a smaller level, uh, as far as packaging, uh, that takes up a lot of time and energy. So as long as your communication is key, your partners will grow with you

Ken: Okay, so open communication lines. Um, are there any other tips, uh, in order to have a good working relationship with your film and partner, um, and maybe even some tips on, on what to look for in a good fulfillment center? 

Mark:  I would say communicate I’m a big communicator.

Uh, I like to be ahead of the request of another. And what I mean by that is. If you know that your business is moving in a particular direction and there might be strains, you should be the one bringing it up first. It shows that you have empathy and it shows you have understanding of what’s happening.

Uh, and it allows for a lot of, uh, it allows for an easier conversation. It allows for. For one where your partner recognizes that you feel for, you know, the changes that may be occurring. Uh, and you can have that open dialogue where they’re not uncomfortable. I think that’s a key element, something that I lean into have done. So for a long time.

Ken: Awesome. Yeah. Let’s uh, let’s switch gears just a little bit. So, um, you mentioned a direct to consumer. What, what’s your mix, uh, online versus offline? 

Mark: Uh, we, we sort of sit around 30%. Uh, our, our goal is to be around 35% as far as direct to consumer versus retail. 

Ken:  Okay. So let’s, I guess let’s talk about the DTC, um, a little bit, you know, it looks like you, you do quite a bit of marketing on Instagram.

Uh, you got a pretty good following there, you know, what’s, what’s the secret to this, or what kind of tips could you offer people who are trying to do the same? 

Mark: My biggest suggestion is find somebody who knows what they’re doing. Yeah. I know that sounds generic, but it’s, it’s something that I talk about a lot.

Um, there’s a lot of time. Money and energy spent by brands that have no clue what they’re doing. And I say that with all the love in the world. And it’s only because I can say, because I’ve been there, I’ve done it and done different things even before this. Uh, where is you’re trying to navigate those waters as far as direct to consumers.

CPAs and the like, and the reality is there are people out there who know exactly what to be doing exactly what to be testing and exactly how to execute. And even with that said, You still may be unsuccessful. And by that is the product, the market fit. And the like may simply not be something that has an opportunity, but rather get there early.

And with fewer dollars wasted by working and spending it with somebody who knows what they’re doing. 

Ken: And so I, I assume you guys, uh, then use an agency or is this something in-house that you’ve hired out for in-house. Okay. And is that what you would recommend to people looking to promote their product online?

Mark: No. I recommend doing whatever they feel comfortable with. I know agencies who, you know, have a good hand in it. And I also know. Really talented individuals who are either already working in house for somebody, or, you know, are kind of working spot checks here and there. So it’s to each his own, everybody, everybody has their own temperature gauge when it comes to that.

Ken: Okay. Awesome. You know, sometimes it’s, it’s helpful to hear about an experience that maybe didn’t work out, you know, marketing wise. Do you have any examples that you could share with the audience? 

Mark: Hm, that’s a good one. Tons, uh, ads, specific ads. I mean, they can specific ads that don’t, that don’t work.

There’s communication. The way you’ve talked about your product, who it’s pointed out, that demographic that it’s pointed out. The color of the ad, uh, what’s inside the ad that that’s the whole idea behind direct to consumer. And then that’s again, just one 10th of the part. And then there’s everything that you are doing as far as being able to follow up with those customers.

So are you acquiring the email? Uh, how did you acquire the emails? Did that work? What email are you sending them? What is inside that email? Are you saying something that makes no sense? Are you saying something that’s attractive to them? Will they click on the link? That’s within the email to bring them back to the website?

Did you give them the right offer? What was the offer? Why didn’t that offer work? Are you losing money on the first transaction? Are you making money on the second transaction? Are you making money on the eighth transaction? Is nobody coming back on the second transaction? I could talk to you about this for days.

Um, that is, is, uh, DTC in a nutshell. 

Ken: Right. Right. And I, and I think what, what I’m hearing you say is that there’s a, there’s a level of sophistication to this that I think, you know, maybe newbies make, make the mistake of just, you know, thinking they’re going to spin up some Facebook ads and all of a sudden have sales.

Um, and, and you really need to have people on your team that know what they’re doing and can actually track all these things. Um, so that you can move in the right direction, correct? Let’s uh, let’s switch gears to wholesale or any, any sort of retail partnerships. Uh, do you guys have any, um, any partnerships, um, that you could share with us?

Mark: We, uh, we’re national advisors can shop for a nutrition supplement. Uh, we are in routes nationally. We’re in Safeway here in Nor Cal. We are in two regions of whole foods, which are in California, both Nor Cal. And so Cal. Uh, we are in Kroger, out East 600 locations in Kroger. Uh, and then we’re in some really great, um, regional and independent Brookshires and Rouses and, uh, Erewhon and lazy acres.

Uh, we have, we have a really great opportunity, uh, retail, uh, as of right now, we’re still growing, got a lot of room to grow there. Uh, and then of course, online, uh, partnerships like Amazon and thrive, uh, have been amazing for us

Ken: Awesome. So, so, um, rewind just a little bit too, once you created your product and, uh, you’re, you’re going out and actually trying to build some of these, these partnerships, how did you guys approach it and, and maybe how do you guys think about it?

Uh in-house is that, do you have somebody that’s in charge of that? Is that a big focus for you guys? You know, just in general, how do you think about it?

Mark: Yeah, we have a director of sales. Uh, so each partnership is its own. We’ve been lucky to have both partnerships come to us and of course we go to them.

And so it’s just one of those things. You’re just waiting your turn and when the time is right, you’re able to present. Yeah. And hopefully put something in front of them that makes sense. And something that their customers are looking for, or that you have the ability to prove to them that you’re bringing your customers to them.

So, uh, it, it really is all about a true partnership in, in, in not just being able to go into their store, but being able to sell off their shelf. 

Ken:  Right. So let’s double click on that just a little bit. So, um, who, who was your first one? Uh, first retail partners. 

Mark:  Our first retail partnership was vitamin shop.

Ken: Okay. And so how did that relationship develop? How did you reach out to them? You know, just, just a little more detail there, I think would be helpful. 

Mark: Sure. I, I believe I brought, um, or hired reached out again. I was in health and wellness before, um, I’ve been in sort of the arenas of the Olympia’s and the Arnolds.

And so I, I am very privy to the nutrition. And supplement companies that are out there, uh, the GNC’s and the vitamin shops of the world. So I was able to connect myself into vitamin shop, uh, and bring them at that time, one of the few protein, higher protein snacks on the savory side that was available.

Uh, so there was a great opportunity and market fit timing, uh, that had, uh, that it sort of connected all at once. And that’s, that’s how I landed in their office in New Jersey. And that was our first partnership. 

Ken: Cool. I’ve heard you on your, on your podcast. You talk a little bit about, um, brokers and you have some feelings about working with brokers.

Um, do you have any do’s or don’ts about kind of navigating, um, that relationship? 

Mark: I think that’s the same as most it’s to each his own is every person in the individual personality. Uh, and. Um, and they’re coming, you know how they’re comfortable with those relationships. There are really great brokers out there and there are not so great brokers.

So you have to navigate the space and get comfortable. I think referrals are always helpful. It’s like with anything when you’re hiring somebody, you do want to do some sort of a research on that person, individual or company. And I don’t believe it’s done enough because there are a lot of brands, especially newer.

Uh, smaller brands in our space, uh, that of course have wishful thinking and optimism. And they’re approached by people who tell them that they can do certain things and that’s not always the case. And so oftentimes money is spent when it shouldn’t have, and you just gotta be very careful with who you’re, who you’re working with.

Ken: Awesome. So I’m also just kind of about distribution and, uh, kinda marketing, um, trade shows are really big in this, in this space. Um, obviously they kind of been on hold with COVID and everything that’s been going on. Um, but with COVID numbers kind of moving in the right direction and, you know, trade shows, thinking about starting up here later this year, um, how are you guys approaching this?

How are you thinking about it? And you know, are trade shows part of your, your, uh, upcoming marketing, um, campaigns? 

Mark:  Uh, not as of now, I don’t know what’s going to happen with trade shows and what they’re even going to look like. I think we’ve just, we’re fortunate right now to not really have to address that because we have so much going on.

I just had gotten off. Right now, actually with a Kroger, we were invited to a Kroger innovation summit as they call it. And it was by zoom. And so, uh, we’re just going to be able to ride out, you know, sort of this type or platform until what we believe to be a true trade show is, you know, and it’s opportunities are going to come available.

Ken:  Okay, cool. Just out of curiosity, I know you’ve got your own podcast. Uh, let’s eat with Mark Samuel. How do you think about it in terms of your overall marketing strategy and how has it been for you guys? So what, what kind of results have you seen? 

Mark: You know, we never really intended for it to have any results, per se.

I just was able to answer to something that I thought was, was a void, which again is, is like with most, most things I couldn’t get on any particular podcasts or, you know, zoom interviews earlier in the business. And, uh, I wanted to, and so I thought, Oh, well, I’ll just do it myself. And that’s kinda how it started.

I think we’re coming off. Getting close to a year. Uh, I think maybe I started in may of last year. So we’re at about 10 months of doing it. Uh, we are we’re at episode 79, plus I’ve done 10 to 15 other episodes where, which is branched off from Lexi, like a sales series. And I just started a marketing series.

Uh, it’s been great. I, the biggest thing for me is being able to just reach out to you and have great conversations with other founders and sales and service providers that are in this space. And so that to me is a win and I feel like there’s value add being delivered to those that are watching it. And that’s the most.

Ken: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And of course, you know, anybody that’s listening to this podcast would probably be interested in, in your podcast as well. Um, so what’s the best way for them to find it. 

Mark: Um, if they’re on LinkedIn, they definitely, you know, look, look me up, Mark Samuel. Um, and they’ll be able to find all the stuff that I put out there.

So that’s that, or they just, you know, Google let’s eat with Mark Samuel, and all the episodes will show up on youTube.

Ken: Right. Yeah. And I, and I just went directly to YouTube and Google the end, uh, I guess YouTube that and, uh, found it that way. So. All right. So are you looking at any other other platforms?

You know, I know clubhouse is really big making a lot of noise. Are you thinking about any of that kind of stuff or maybe even doing more in the podcasting space? What are you, what are you thinking? 

Mark: Not right now. No, I mean, I’ve been asked to do some courthouse stuff I’m on there. It’s funny. I just opened up the app.

I don’t even know where all these followers are coming from. It’s an interesting, I’ve gone on it. A couple of times I’ve been asked to, I read a couple, which has been fun. I don’t have much extra time for another app and it’s all good. I totally get it. I think it’s cool. Um, I, I, yesterday I jumped into a conversation that was going on.

I just, um, I don’t really get it yet, but I do understand this for mostly for other people really enjoy. Um, uh, consuming content. I, I am not a content consumer, uh, say that all the time. I, you know, I don’t read and I don’t really like sit there and listen to any podcasts or anything, but that’s just me. Uh, and that’s what works for me.

I have two young kids. Um, that’s my, my priority work comes second. And any extra time from there, uh, is probably not sitting on a, you know, on an open dialogue, a clubhouse, but again, that’s just me.

Ken: Understood, understood. Um, well you had enough time to run an ebook, um, uh, small wins, big victories. Do you want to tell us just a little bit about it and why you wrote it?

Mark: Sure. Um, that was kind of an anomaly all through LinkedIn, too. Um, I had been posting, you know, which I do. I, I put out content every day on LinkedIn and somebody who was a ghost writer had reached out and we just kind of mashed up. She was an amazing person and she had been following me and she was like, you got to put all this into a.

Into a little book and I’m like, okay, cool. I’ve always wanted to do that. What does that look like? And fast forward, and next thing you know, or, you know, four months into this thing and come into a little Pfizer, I don’t know what it is. Six, seven chapters of small wins, big victories, which is really about, you know, my ideas of, of celebrating small wins to get you through each day, each week, each month.

Um, how you can celebrate those and, and get you, you know, sort of gets you on that, that, that path of, of that, that its own success right there. Um, through different things like health and nutrition and fitness and social media and, and family. And so that’s, that’s what we were able to. 

Ken: Okay, awesome. And if someone’s interested in that, where can they find it?

Mark: Uh, they can actually text the word wins. W I N S T eight one four nine three. And it will automatically deliver to them. 

Ken: Okay. Awesome. All right. So I guess just wrapping up here, you know, what’s, what’s next for  organics and what are you excited about? Um, anything in particular you can tell us about. 

Mark: We do have a couple innovations, uh, that are coming out, which is cool.

Uh, we are launching a new product next month, actually. And then we are planning, uh, which is, we’re kind of. We’re kind of moving this other innovation up, just because we’re super excited about it that we potentially could be launching in early summer. So we’ve got a lot of stuff going on as far as new product releases and just a momentum of our brand and our companies is an exciting thing to be a part of.

Ken: Okay. And if somebody is interested in keeping up with some of those innovations and what’s coming up with, with, with you guys, uh, what’s the best way to do that? 

Mark:  Our website, I want And then of course, following me, I put out a lot of that stuff early on my LinkedIn page, uh, at Mark Samuel.

Ken: Okay. Awesome. Well, let’s just do a quick, uh, quick fire round. Uh, I’ll just ask you a question. You just tell me off the top of your head, any answers that come to mind, what’s one tool or resource that has helped you the most with your current project, 

Mark: doing it, 

Ken: just getting, just getting into it and doing it.

Mark: I, yeah, just do it. Go, go. Do something and we’ll figure it out. 

Ken: Okay. What is a one piece of advice that you would give your 21 year old self? 

Mark: Not one thing. That we’re not giving my 21 year old self any information. The biggest thing you could ever do is learn through experience. I wouldn’t tell my 21 year old self, a darn thing.

Ken: Awesome. And, uh, who is the one person that you’d love to take the lunch? 

Mark: My mom 

Ken: And that’s awesome. All right. Well, I, you know, I appreciate you Mark, uh, taking the time today and, uh, uh, spending, spending some of your valuable minutes with us. Um, I think that there’s been a lot of awesome content here. Is there anything that you do want to promote or plug, you know, as we wrap up here, 

Mark: You just your show, brother, whatever you got going on here, let’s get it out there.

Ken: All right. Sounds good. Hey, thanks so much for joining us. 

Mark: I appreciate it. Thanks, man. 

Ken: All right, bye. 

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