In this episode of The Physical Product Movement, we’re joined by Ynzo van Zanten, Chief Evangelist at Tony’s Chocolonely.

A global chocolate brand that produces a 100% hundred percent slave free product.

Ynzo shares the opportunity for brands to become mission driven and how this mission needs to be baked into the company’s DNA.

He also shares Tony’s success at promoting their mission, becoming a successful global brand all while maintaining a zero paid media policy.

Listen on Apple Podcasts here or Spotify here.


Ken: Welcome to the Physical Product Movement, a podcast by Fiddle, we share stories of the world’s most ambitious and exciting physical product brands to help you capitalize on the monumental change in how, why and where consumers buy. I’m your host, Ken Ojuka.

Welcome to another episode of the physical product movement podcast. Today, I speak with Enzo van Zanten, Chief Evangelist at Tony’s Chocolonely, a global chocolate brand focused on a hundred percent slave free chocolate. We talk about the opportunity of being a mission driven company and how this mission needs to be baked into the company’s DNA.

We also talk about their success at promoting their mission and becoming a successful global brand all while maintaining a zero paid media policy. It’s a pretty interesting conversation and I think you’ll enjoy it. All right. And so how are you doing today? Uh, thanks for, for taking the time to talk with me. I appreciate it. Jumping on the call. Yeah, no 

Ynzo: worries. Great to be here. Thanks for having me. 

Ken: That’s the, where am I finding you? 

Ynzo: I’m based in the Netherlands. So our office is in Amsterdam. I, I personally now working from home. That’s about 45 minutes away from Amsterdam. 

Ken: Nice, nice. So, um, you know, you have a pretty varied backgrounds and we’re going to be talking a lot about, uh, Tony’s Chocolonely.

Maybe just start by telling us a little bit about yourself, your background and his schooling, that kind of thing. 

Ynzo: Yeah, I’m a 49 year old dad of two kids living in a central Holland. And I’ve always been working, uh, I think in areas where I’m trying to bridge the gap between, uh, stuff that could be really interesting for the world and, uh, the people that can use that.

So it’s always bridging, causing awareness. And at the moment that is for Tony’s Chocolonely is a small chocolate company. Um, so that is really me. And I’m the, my job title. There is a chief evangelist or the Shoko evangelist, which means that normally I would be traveling to globe and the galaxy and beyond to really spread the whole story of the cocoa industry to talk about what we do as Tony’s chocolate lonely and how we do things.

] And nowadays, obviously that’s all, I’m all from home. I still really look down and then that lands, but that’s, there’s an upside to that too, because now in one day I can cover from Taiwan to Australia to Amsterdam to, 

Ken: yeah, definitely. Definitely. Is there a quote that you’d like to share with us? You know, something that maybe you live by or there’s impactful to you?

Ynzo: Ah, ken, but then you get me going just cause there’s loads in my portfolio. Okay. Here we go. So I’ll give you two. One is that my definition of sustainability is simply picking up one more piece of paper in your life than what you’re thrown in the ground. So that’s really trying to make a net positive impact on the planet.

You can’t always. Not having the impact, but you can try to have a net positive impact at least. And then my favorite one is always to say that you’re never too small to make a difference, right? If you think this is a totally stolen quote, by the way, but if you think you’re too small to make a difference, try sharing your room with a mosquito.

So that was really how I really believe small things do matter. 

Ken: Nice. Thank you. Um, and for those that haven’t heard about, uh, Tony’s struggle lonely. Um, can you describe the business and, uh, what makes you guys unique? 

Ynzo: Definitely. So where I would buy now say formerly small Dutch chocolate company. And I say formerly because we’ve grown like a family of rabbits over the last seven, eight years.

And we’re a chocolate company and is trying to make a difference in cocoa industry because unfortunately there’s a very bitter reality to the sweet story of chocolate, which is that unfortunately is still today. There’s a huge amount of illegal enforced child labor in the cocoa industry. So to give you a couple of numbers, 60% of all cocoa, whole wide world comes from two countries in Western Africa, Ghana and ivory coast.

And then just those two countries alone, a recent report. The more report has shown that still, unfortunately, today there’s more than one and a half million children that work under illegal circumstances. Overage. 95% even work under hazardous situations. And at least 30,000 children are subject to something that we consider modern slavery.

So those are kids that are forced to do unpaid work often outside of the family environment and all to deliver cocoa beans to the. Cocoa industry that makes chocolate out of it, a product that everybody should be able to enjoy. Right. Everybody who eats it, everybody who gives it away, everybody who gets it as a present, but unfortunately not everybody in that value chain is enjoying that as much.

Um, are we trying to make a difference by creating awareness? Amongst chocolate consumers about this reality in the cocoa industry, we try to show the chocolate industry that that chocolate can be made in a different way, in a more sustainable way, in a more social way, um, by simply taking responsibility for your full value chain.

So really paying a fair price to the farmers in the beginning of the value chain, creating long-term relationships with these farmers, helping these farmers increase their productivity and the quality of the cocoa beans that they deliver. And lastly, we try to really inspire the whole chocolate industry to, to act themselves, to really take the responsibility that they should be taking.

Um, and they aren’t according to us, uh, but really try to inspire them by showing them that you can be financially successful and still have a positive impact for the planet and the society that you operate in. So that in a nutshell is what we do as a chocolate company. And we’re now. Grown from a Dutch local company to a company or two to a triplet brand that’s available in almost 30 countries of which the U S is a very important market for us.

Right. Right. And so, um, obviously it’s very, um, very powerful, um, mission. Can you describe kind of how that, that mission came about? Was it, was it part of the, the founding story of the company or was it something that you guys adopted a little later? That was 

Ynzo: an interesting story, not a, this wasn’t we were sometimes I get asked.

So when was this moment that your company pivoted to become sustainable? We never pivoted. We just, we never even meant to become a successful chocolate company. We would just wanted to create awareness and change something that we saw. So let me tell you a little story of our, or how we were founded.

There were a couple of Dutch journalists working for a television show that always dives into. Some of the, let me put this diplomatically, some of the nonsense in food marketing out there, and they reveal this and they ran me to a tiny newspaper article on page 12 of some newspaper that spoke about.

Children being traded for the coconut industry in, in Mali, in Western Africa. And they were shocked. They were like, how can this not be front page news, covering the whole front page, right? How can this be such a widespread problem in the cocoa industry for a product that all of us in? Well, most of us in Western society tend to enjoy almost on a daily basis and they started, um, Digging into it and realize that this was a very unknown and widespread problem, but unfortunately, the cocoa industry who is responsible for solving this problem, didn’t really, really want to talk to these guys through these television guys.

Nobody wants to give them an interview. And that is the same chocolate industry that a couple of years beforehand, before they read this article had voluntarily agreed to eradicate all forms of child labor from their value trains. In something that’s called the harken and angle protocol, a protocol set up by two congressmen in the United States, uh, Congressman hearken, Congressman angle.

Um, and these journalists realized that even though this agreement was signed, nothing had changed and even worse, nothing had been done actually towards change in the cocoa industry. So they started, um, uh, making a bit of a noise around it. Uh, but, um, and there’s another little story there for you, uh, for you to know.

I don’t know if these people wanted to speak to them on camera. Don’t don’t want to Coca the, also the name giver of the brand. Tony is simply as the, the international version of tone. Um, Bought a couple of chocolate bars of which he knew or was convinced that there was forced child labor in the value chain of those chocolate bars.

And he put a camera on himself and he took a bite of each and every of those chocolate bars and he called the international alarm number a Europe, which is one, one, two, your equivalent will be nine one one. And he, uh, he said, you’d have to come and arrest me because I am a chocolate criminal. No, they don’t get these phone calls every day.

So the lady said, why, sir? And then he started to elaborate and he said, well, according to international law, if you buy something of which you know, that there’s illegal activities in the process of the product that you bought, you make yourself complicit to those illegal activities. So he reasoned by buying and consuming chocolate of which I know that there’s forced child labor in there.

I made myself complicit to financing more than slavery. So you have to come, come and arrest me. And in the end he even had a court case set up against himself. Um, and unfortunately the judge said morally you’re completely right. But legally, I can’t really prosecute you on this basis because then I would have to put everybody in Holland in jail.

And I would really need to be able to prove the causality between the chocolate and the cocoa beans in Western Africa. But this led to him founding the chocolate company, because he said, why, if I don’t have this. A court verdict. And I don’t have the interviews that I wanted. I’ll change the system from within.

I started my own little chocolate company called Tony’s chocolate only. So that is the whole founding story of, uh, of our brand. 

Ken: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And so he then started, um, the chocolate company, obviously with a strong mission and a strong direction. I right away. Um, what, what kind of business impact do you think that, that having this mission?

You know, I, I know it’s part of your identity. It’s part of the company DNA, but what kind of effect do you think it actually has on the business of selling chocolate? 

Ynzo: Probably it depends on your viewpoint and the effect we have on our own personal business is that we’ve grown like crazy because it’s shown that consumers really want to be able to be part of this movement of positive change for a product that everybody wants to enjoy without out any sense of guilt.

Right. Um, but it’s not about us. It’s not about. Our company or us making a change. It’s about really all of us, the whole industry joining hands to create that change together because we’re convinced that this is such a widespread problem, that we can only reach that mission of a hundred percent slave free chocolate worldwide, but really working together with the whole industry with chocolate consumers, with cocoa farmers, with governments, with retailers.

So everybody has a, has a partial play in that, in creating that change. 

Ken: And so you, you, you mentioned a couple of times, um, that you guys source your, your chocolate from Ghana and, uh, ivory coast. Is that social source from anywhere else or just those two countries? 

Ynzo: No, we sourced from those two countries because they are the major chocolate producing countries in the world.

And therefore that is the place where also the big chocolate firms purchased their cocoa beans. And we want to show them that within their framework of working, you can make that difference. And it’s also because over there, the problem with the forced child labor is the biggest, uh, uh, compared to anywhere else in the world.

Ken: Okay. Understood. So, um, you know, what, what specific steps do you take? You know, I, I understand the mission. I understand, you know, how you’re trying to improve the situation, but are there any specific steps that your company takes as you work with the farmers, uh, in Ghana and ivory coast? What are some specifics or tangible things that we can tell the listeners, 

Ynzo: right there’s, there’s five very concrete steps, very tangible steps that we think are essential to getting these farmers towards a, a, a better environment for them to in. So one is really taking responsibility for your complete value chain. Too many companies produce goods from resources that they have no idea where it comes from and then hide behind that fact.

And this is the same one we started with with chocolate. The whole industry said, there’s no such thing as traceable, cocoa beans, cocoa beans are a mass balanced product. So that means that all cocoa means. Certified or not wherever they come from are thrown on a big heap. The so-called would market at Ciocca producers buy their cocoa beans from the back end of the world market to create a chocolate, which is very convenient for them.

because if you then confront them with the question, is there any forced child labor in your chocolate? They say, we don’t know, because we don’t know where the beans come from. And we think that’s a lame reasoning and just hiding that fact. So it’s really about. Working throughout your complete value chain.

[00:12:53] We say bean to bar and take responsibility for that. We also think that these farmers need to be able to earn a higher price, a fair price for these cocoa beans that they deliver. So on top of the market price, which is way too low, we think. We pay a fair trade premium and the fair trade premium, we pay an additional Tony’s premium to get these farmers towards something that we call the living income price, which we establish each and every year.

That is the price that we think should be able to earn, to really have a roof over their head. Being able to feed the whole families, being able to send their kids to school, which we find essential in our strategy, um, and in them increasing and improving their livelihoods. We also really believe in building long-term relationships.

So most of these as farmers don’t have the security, the guarantee that they can sell their cocoa beans to the market again next year afterwards. So we say we set up five year, uh, agreements with these farmers. So for at least five-year ongoing, they know that they can sell their beans to us, and that’s a unilateral agreement so they can walk away whenever they want one too.

But we are bound to, uh, to that agreement. Why five years, because it takes about five years for a little sapling to become a fruit bearing cocoa tree so that then they can really replenish their farms and get more productivity from their farms. So the increase in productivity and increase in quality is the fourth step.

And the fifth step is to really enable these cooperatives, that these farmers are United in to have a really stronger stand in that market where they sell their coconuts. So those five steps. Traceability a fair price. Long-term at quality and productivity and strong farmers are really essential. We think to work towards that better future for these farmers.

Ken: Okay. And let’s say that somebody somebody’s listening, um, wanting to move towards this direction of a more open and sustainable supply chain, what are, you know, maybe one or two things that they could do to start moving in this direction? 

Ynzo:  From a business perspective or consumer perspective

Ken: either way actually. Um, maybe, maybe you can tell us both. 

Ynzo: Yeah. So from a consumer perspective, I would say really realize that you have a vote for a better rule just about every day with every purchase you make. Right? So, so it’s not about just chocolate. It’s really about conscious purchase decisions. Um, another one would be, and I would blatantly just call this out to join our petition that we’ve launched on Tony struggle,, where we really call for legislation to hold organizations accountable for any form of human rights violations in their value chains.

Because we think there should be laws in place and when the laws are in place, they should be enforced. So this is really from the consumer perspective, from the business business perspective. If you are, for example, a chocolate producer, I would say don’t reinvent the wheel, join what we call the Tony’s open chain platform, where we share all this information open source and people can join in this, in, in this movement towards, uh, that living income for these farmers.

So the five steps that I just mentioned are in the twenties open chain platform, and there’s a couple of. People that already joined. So for example, the biggest retailer in the Netherlands has joined us the biggest chocolate producer in the world, buddy Callebaut or Calabar, we should say abroad has joined us.

So this is from a business perspective. And if it’s outside of the chocolate industry, I would say, really realize that you have a responsibility. If you are a. Financially successful enterprise, that you have a responsibility to the society and the planet you operate in. Right? I mean, financial success shouldn’t be an end goal.

It should be a means towards a goal and don’t get me wrong. Ken I’m commercial as hell, but it’s an essential means towards a goal. The goal in our case is a hundred percent slave free chocolate, but for any other company, I would also say, you know, your end goal, isn’t to end up with money. It’s what you can do with that money.

Ken: Nice. Thank you. What about the, the open chain, uh, platform that you mentioned? Can you tell us a little bit about it and how somebody would sign up for it or where to find it? 

Ynzo: Yeah. So I think it’s a direct link. Tony’s open and otherwise you can find it through our website, Tony

And this is really an invitation to retailers, to chocolate manufacturers, to chocolate brands, to join forces and really work together instead of considering ourselves as competition. Right? Because I think we can always compete based on taste on packaging or marketing, but you should never compete based on basic human rights.

So that’s is something that everybody should simply comply with, uh, sort of Tony’s open chain platform, reasons to share this information that we build up over the last 15 years, because it isn’t easy. I mean, the whole system is very complex. It’s a systemic problem that has grown over decades, maybe even centuries.

 So it’s not fixed in a short timeframe as we hoped when we started. Uh, but let’s at least share the learnings that we have. So the Tony’s open chain really is an open invitation, I would say to anybody to join, to join us. 

Ken: Okay. Yeah. Um, so when you go to Tony chuckle on on the main part of the page, uh, you have an arrow that’s pointing towards, uh, our, our mission is what it’s labeled.

It says our mission. And then, um, you have an arrow pointing the other direction that says our shop. You know, how does your team think about that balance between your mission and, and the business of selling chocolate? 

Ynzo: Well, I think this, this division, uh, is exactly the way it should be, right? The mission is number one for us.

And then number two is how to get to that mission. So that is really, for example, sales. I mean, we’re commercial. We want to change that system, but we can only change that system or being noticed. And if you want to be noticed, you need to grow. Uh, and when we grow, we make the impact we want to make. Um, so for us, again, that commercial success is essential, but it’s not a goal.

So I sometimes get asked about the balance between being profitable and being sustainable as if that is two ends of one spectrum. And I think as a company that we are, we show that. If you let go of that paradox then, and you combine it in the middle, then you can be financially successful because you are so purpose driven.

Right? So sometimes people close a social enterprise. For example, I have never called us a social enterprise, at least not over the last few years. And I’m really starting to oppose that term because again, as I think any. Financially successful enterprise should take the responsibility. And if you don’t take that responsibility seriously, you should be considered an antisocial enterprise.

So instead of putting ourselves into the niche of social entrepreneurship at the fringes of entrepreneurship, I think companies like ours should position themselves as the new norm and simply push out these anti-social enterprises towards the fringes of entrepreneurship. And that is I think, how we can all create change together.

Ken: Yeah, I think that’s actually a great framing. And it’s something that you see consumers demanding actually, right? They’re starting to require it from, from the companies that they, that they buy from. 

Ynzo: Exactly. I mean, if even if your moral compass is slightly twisted, that you need to realize that this is what consumers want and will be wanting in the future.

I think there will be only place in, in 21st century capitalism for these purpose driven companies. 

Ken: Yeah. Excellent. And so obviously you’re the chief evangelists, you know, for, for this mission. Um, you know, what’s the, what types of things do you do to promote this mission in this cause? And, uh, obviously promote the company.

Ynzo: Yeah. So we we’ve always been slightly, uh, hardheaded and outspoken in this field because we’ve never done any form of, uh, advertising. There’s never been any commercial or ad by Tony’s. It’s all been word of mouth. So what we do is really create a solid fan base that we call our serious friends. Those are the people that not just buy our chocolate because they simply like our chocolate and just buy our chocolate because they buy into our mission.

But those people that actively spread that mission amongst friends and family. So those people are essential to really spread this story. We always tell people, you know, share our chocolate and share our story at the same time. This is also for example, why our bars are unequally divided, because if you then open a bar, Tony’s next to somebody that doesn’t know this story about how unequally divided this value chain of is you’re going to have to explain that story because that.

that person next to you is bound to ask you why is that bar? So annoyingly, unequally divided. So our bar has actually become a discussion for right. If you open one of them at a, at a dinner table or wherever you open a bar of chocolate. So we have to come up with smart ways to spread in this story. Uh, what we do, for example, in the us, we have a converted postal truck that drives around the whole country that used to also sample, uh, near supermarkets or universities, and then Corona and the COVID pandemic hit.

And we converted the truck to really a, um, uh, empower people or how do you call that, uh, to, to make people vote right until the last elections and, uh, really, uh, inspire people to go to the voting booth and be part of that change. So now we’ve converted that truck to show the latest campaign that we launched a suite solutions campaign, where we call upon the whole chocolate industry through a, a, a, a.

A little triggering campaign that we made. We made bars that are inspired by the traditional iconic forms and shapes in chocolate bars that you see in the industry and inspired by their labeling. We made a couple of bars that are lookalikes, but we consider them even better because they are made through the five sourcing principles that I mentioned earlier on.

And that truck promotes these sweet solution bars that we put out there to really invite the whole industry to now after 20 years of voluntary agreements. Really joined forces. I make sure that we solve this problem for once and forget. 

Ken: Okay, so let me make sure I understand. So, um, the sweet solution campaign, you guys made it special products, um, the, for this campaign, uh, to further promote your cause.

Um, what else goes into, you know, I’m just trying to think of a, you know, a company that’s looking at, you know, maybe doing something similar, you know, maybe you could tell us a little bit more about the campaign, how that came about, and what’s sort of the end goal is like, how do you measure that it was a successful campaign?

Ynzo: Yeah. So this came about because, because again, after 20 years of voluntary agreements where you really think it’s time for legislation, and, and if you’re, if you’re sourcing your beans in a proper way, you have nothing to be fearful of. Um, but if you do then maybe you need a bit of a push in the right direction.

So we made bars that are inspired by. The shapes of certain bars that are available out there, same kind of tastes, and then put them out into the stores and say, you know, these might be lookalikes, but you know, join, join us to, to solve this problem. So in the inside of the wrapper, we call upon consumers to sign that petition that I mentioned earlier on to really make sure that we’re reaching enough, uh, signatures, that it gets on the agenda of both the us and the European union that we should have legislation in place.

So this is one of the. Campaigns that we launched. We had another one that we did in London and in Stockholm where we launched a campaign that said free chocolate. And then we invited people to come along and we created a bit of a hype in the center of the towns that, that it looked like some kind of club where you would get free chocolate.

There was a line outside. And a doorman looking, uh, sternly at you and you would be let in and then you will be confronted with a little movie of a couple of minutes that spoke about there’s no such thing as free chocolate. Somebody pays the price somewhere in the value chain. And then there was this eraser going over a word, and then it showed.

Slave free chocolate. And then you would walk out of that room and you would be, uh, coming into a sampling room. We’ll be able to taste all our chocolate in the end, and it would be free chocolate from our side, but that gave us the chance to really convey this story. So for us doing no paid media at all, do no advertising do no commercials.

 It’s really about sharing the story. And as you may have noticed, it takes a bit longer than about 20 seconds in a commercial that you have to really explain what the problem in the cocoa industry is. So this is why we go round. Tell this story, wherever we can, this documentary is about us. Uh, and, and we make an annual report every year that really experienced this whole story again.

And annual reports tend to be really boring, but we try to make them really fun to read. So it’s really about constantly triggering people and creating awareness. 

Ken: Okay. Excellent. Is there, um, anything that, uh, that is maybe coming up that you’re pretty excited about or any, any news that you want to share with the audience?

Ynzo: I think the suite solution combined at the moment is the hardest thing that we’re about. And, um, there’s a couple more partners which are constantly think about joining Tony’s open chain platform pretty soon. And that’s also a big thing in the pipeline, I would say, which is us really still wanting to start our own factory at the outskirts of Amsterdam in the historic hardware, chocolate, all was used to me, made in Holland.

Which is really an experience that you see where cocoa beans come from, where how chocolate is made. And we’re aiming to get about half a million people through that factory over year. So we really can share the story of many more people. So I would almost say watch this. 

Ken: Okay. Yeah. So how likely do you think you guys are, um, to start a factory 

Ynzo: there? I think pretty likely. It’s just a question of timing though. I mean, there’s times it’s a bit hard. Uh, obviously in these times, all working from home, not knowing where the economy is going to launch such a huge, uh, project, like, uh, starting a factory. So we’ve put it on hold for the moment. But, uh, at Tony’s I would say, never say never.

Ken: Right. Excellent. All right. So, um, just want to maybe switch gears and jump into our quick fire around. Um, I’ll just ask you a question and you just answer, um, the, with a fast answer, um, uh, name one tool or resource that you used to to do your, to do your job and to run the business. 

Ynzo: internet 

Ken: anything specific on the internet?

Ynzo: No, it’s like you and I know talking rod we’re on different sides of the world and we can communicate. So I think we can really use that as a force for good and a way to educate yourself. So I think there’s amazing 

opportunities there. No, I like it. I like it. In fact, you know, the world just seems a lot smaller because of the internet and especially the communication tools that have come out in the last few years and you can reach 

so many people, right?

Ken: Yeah. Yeah. Um, what is one book that has helped you the most in your career? 

Ynzo: Ooh, that’s a tough one, you know, honestly, because you’re aiming at a business book probably, but I would love to mention into the wild, not just, uh, one of my favorite books, but also one of my favorite movies. And it inspired me to really, I even have a ring engraved with on the outside a more positive note, which is a saying by the Dalai Lama that says, uh, um, uh, the purpose of life is to be happy.

But on the inside of that ring, I had engraved the last sentence and maybe this is a spoiler alert for the people who haven’t read or seen into the wild. But the very last sentence of the book is happiness is only real when shared. And I think that’s a great way to look at the whole world as well.

Right? I mean, we’re so unequally divided all across the globe that we should realize that happiness actually is on in real words. 

Ken: Nice. Okay. What is one piece of advice that you’d give to your 21 year old self? 

Ynzo: Never think you’re insignificant, never think you’re too small to make a difference. Never, ever.

I I’m really inspired by students. For example, I I’ve been teaching for ages as well in the past, and I still love to do talks for universities and, and, uh, and, uh, colleges, because so often these people that are the entrepreneurs or future still think they’re not at the spot that they can make a difference, but they inspire me much more than I would say my peers around me at my age as entrepreneurs.

Ken:  Um, who is, uh, a person in the world that you’d love to take the lunch? 

Ynzo: Oh, I already mentioned the Dalai Lama, but so I’ll let that one go. I think, um, uh, well, uh, Yvon Chouinard, the founder of Patagonia is a really amazing guy and entrepreneur. Yeah, that will be it. Yeah. I think everyone should know.

Ken: Awesome. And, um, and what’s your situation? Are you single, married kids? 

Ynzo: Married happily married with two kids into puberty. So that’s a, sometimes less happy.

Ken: All right. And as we wrap up here, um, just want to ask if there’s any advice that you could give to other companies that are in the world of physical products. Um, is there any advice that you could give them? 

Ynzo: Yes. What I said earlier, I’d like to repeat that at this point is really, if you are financially successful, if you are a, an enterprise and realize you do have a moral obligation to the planet and the society you operate in, you need to take that obligation seriously, because we can fix this world.

We can make this a great place where we need to join hands, hands. And it’s, it’s not about competing. It’s about collaborating, 

Ken: I think. Awesome. And, uh, is there anything that you want to promote or plug. 

Ynzo: Yes, definitely. Tony’s chocolate I would love everybody to go there, signed a petition and really part become part of this movement of business as a force for good.

Ken:  All right. And so, um, and if people wanted to reach out to you, what’s the best way to, to do that? 

Ynzo: Well, I once saw some kind of a, when I was a Googling myself, which is overly narcissistic, obviously, but I once saw that there’s only six in those in the world with Y N Zito. So anybody wanting to reach out to me, it’s really a breeze, I think, to get in touch with me, but otherwise it’s ends up at Tony’s chocolate

Ken:  Awesome. Well, Enzo it’s, uh, it’s been awesome talking to you. I appreciate you taking the time. Um, you guys obviously have a great product, but an even better and more impressive mission. Um, and I, and I think that, uh, you’re exactly right. The two should work in concert and, uh, you know, people producing products actually do have a moral obligation.

Um, to know their supply chains and to, to do the best that they can for this planet that we have and for the people in it. Um, I appreciate you taking the time. This has been an awesome dinner. Thank you. 

Ynzo: Thank you for having me, Ken. 

 Ken: All right. Take care. 

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