In this episode of The Physical Product Movement, we’re joined by Saul Santos, Senior Principal at SAZAKA dsgn to discuss getting to know your consumer intimately, the importance of the relationship with your factory and the power of niching down in the physical product business.

Listen on Apple Podcasts here or Spotify here.


Don: There’s never been a better time for Physical Products than now. My name is Don Drew Bay, and I want to learn from the best minds in the industry. This is the golden age for consumer products. This is a time where anyone can go from zero to financially independent. This is the physical products movement.

Welcome to the Physical Products Movement. My name is Don Drew Bay. I am your host. This podcast is powered by Fiddle Inventory. The best, the fastest, the most innovative inventory management software to ever hit the market that these guys are disrupting this industry. No more hefty servers, no more unresponsive customer support.

Fiddle is cloud-based. So nothing will get in the way of your production. And fiddles created a, one of a kind Kanban or Trello board view. So you can see your work orders and sales orders in the most clear way possible. And the best part is fiddle is free. It has room to grow and paid plans as you go.

But if you want to get started, there’s no lengthy demos, no binding contracts. And the free lasts forever free trials are a thing of the past. So go to today to see the latest episodes of this podcast and also to get started. So do you want to just start by introducing yourself, um, to let us know your name and, and, uh, and a little bit about what you’ve done?

Saul: Yeah. So my name is Sal Santos. I am from. Originally from Mexico city. And, uh, my family, we live in the city towards not the Mexican Mexico city called ghetto. And that’s where we’ve been for the last 20 years. And I came to, to the U S uh, to play soccer for BYU. So I played soccer there, BYU, and then, um, it took me, it took me a minute to.

 To get done. And, um, I, I bounced around, I first wanted to study engineering like my father, but I ended up, you know, doing industrial design, but I actually didn’t, I didn’t finish in industrial design. Um, and you give me a second baby. Sorry. My, my daughter is here to give me one second.

I wasn’t calling you baby. I was calling my better. 

Don: You’re good.

Saul: Okay. So I’ll, I’ll do the intro again. 

Don: You’re good. 

Saul: Okay. So I’m from Mexico city and I came to the U S to play soccer at BYU. Um, And, uh, I started industrial design at BYU and, and I was part of the part of like a bunch of startups in, in Utah. Um, when, when that was the old school, I went down to Mexico. My dad passed away around the same time.

So I would announce Mexico. I was working in, um, for Exide is it’s, uh, the manufacturer car battery. So I was working, you know, as a sales guy, pretty much done Mexico. Yeah. Then I had an opportunity to come back to the U S and help a brand mission belt, which was Michelle was one of the first. Uh, companies from Utah to make it to shark tank.

Don: Yeah. So, you know, um, um, last name, Hanks. Um, yeah, 

Saul: Seth. Yeah, I know. So 

he was a really cool guy. 

Don: It’s awesome. Yeah. He, um, he, sorry to interrupt you. His, his dad. It was my wife’s submission president.

Saul: Is what? Sorry. You’re 

Don: fine. Assess dad is my wife’s mission president. 

Saul: Oh, cool. Yeah. So small world. 

Yeah. I’ve said it’s a really cool guy. 

Don: Anyway, keep 

Saul: going. So, um, so we, we branded mission belt. I mean, when, when I, when I joined mission belt, they had a very basic. You know, um, website, they were barely getting off the ground.

So it was really cool because I learned a lot about how to, um, you know, give, uh, you know, a company, their brand identity, you know, and, and really, you know, really trying to. To identify the target consumer. And, and, and because in essence you have to deliver a clear message to them through your products.

You know, you have to speak to the, he has to create emotions because, you know, we buy when we get excited, you know, when we love something. Yeah. So getting to know your consumer is, is crucial. So, you know, I’m back then. I didn’t have nearly as much experience, but, you know, Yeah, we got my mind thinking about, you know, okay, who are we?

What are we trying to do? You know, where can we have the most impact? And we have, we, at the time we had a very limited budget, you know, because we were doing all this branding before, before, um, And, uh, the shell before  even air. And then, so we did the West side of the, like, I took the pictures, you know, at the time I was my now wife, we were dating and I would borrow her camera, you know, and, and I did all the product photography and the model photography, like we were doing all sorts of things.

And then we have another friend, I don’t know if you talked to Shane Monson who. Is the founder of on sending towels. He is just like, he ran a crowd funding campaign for four towels that dry well, and pretty much tells the, do their job. And he’s Japanese half Japanese. So you started his mission in Japan.

So. Hmm. He took that, that approach of, of, of quality of products and, and, and gave it to his company anyways. But he was part of, of the, of the marketing team back then. So, I mean, we were just bouncing off ideas. He was really, he was really cool time. So, you know, um, uh, FAC wholesale for who is, uh, one of the founders, Jeff Jennison, and then, and then, um, made wholesale for.

So those were the three founders that I was employee number one. And, you know, we started the company golf from, you know, from nothing pretty much to millions of dollars and it’s exciting. It was really cool. It was really cool experience, you know, and it was really cool to do everything from the ground up, you know, even though I was deciding, and that was branding, I took.

You know, sometimes when our inventory was so low and we couldn’t keep up with cells, you know, I would drive down to, to Los Angeles and, and rent a U-Haul and drive it myself because we couldn’t wait for you now for the, for the, for the truck, the trucking companies too, you know, we couldn’t wait like two weeks, so I would go.

You know, I wouldn’t sleep. And in 24 hours I would go down to California and come back so we could shoot Bob product, you know? So it was one of those, it was, it was a very cool experience. And now looking back, you know, I realized how much of, how much I learned from that experience, you know? Yeah. And then from there I went to, so I had, um, uh, one of our, another, one of our friends who we played soccer with.

Uh, Jake haven’t no, he had, um, taken over his parent’s company called Utah truffles and, uh, Utah truffles is being, you know, like you go to Macy’s, you go to, you know, so many stores in, in Utah and you would always find this chocolate. So, you know, being young and being very aggressive business, he wanted to grow the company.

So. Uh, he bought a, uh, you know, some other, some other, uh, chocolate brands. And we started with start selling at Costco, you know, we, so what we would do, he recruited me to come work with them and be a creative director at what we did was just create chocolate brands. Awesome. That was really cool too. And you know, he was, it was a different vibe, different energy, but.

You know, a lot of, um, I feel like I was pretty, sorry. You’re good. I’m good. I feel like, I feel like I’ve, you know, and that work has always been like part of who I am, but just to see how he was done, at least in, in the Utah, you know, you like, you know, salt Lake County, Utah County it’s I think there’s something unique there.

And, and Jake is from salt Lake. So to see how he’s interacting this. I was always self-serving and learning, you know, how, how, how, how those, uh, those, those interactions happen because that family there’s something about youth that it’s different because I don’t feel like, I feel like people that come in from outside.

Uh, we’ll need some adjustments so they can, you know, grasp, you know, the, the network and the interactions, because I feel is very unique. Um, so I learned that from there. And then, and then from there, um, I, um, I couldn’t work for them anymore because, uh, I was in the process of, is this, this is actually like probably.

One of the biggest growth, um, experiences of my life is, uh, in, so I couldn’t work for him because I was in the process of, of getting my, my work visa in, in the meantime I had to, you know, coach a lot more because I’ve coached soccer and then I do all the jobs that will pay. Yeah. Yep. So even though, like I had.

You know, all these experiences and all this creative mind, not on my, myself in selling roofs, you know, I’m doing all sorts of manual labor. And I used to keep by that I was married already. He was still, he was on float. And then once, you know, the work permit came in and which then I felt like it was time to start pursuing what I always wanted, which was to be a forward designer.

Don: Yeah. Awesome. 

Saul: Yeah. So that’s a little, I mean, I don’t know if you want me to keep going out and know you have a specific questions. That’s kind of like a little, how so that’s that’s uh, that’s about the time where, where I was able to get an internship at Outre running up in login. I don’t know if you’re familiar with the alt-right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I’ll try it. It’s actually was started in Oregon. You know, and golden Harper, um, and that brand Beckstead, you know, out of, uh, run this corner right there in the arm. And it’s incredible to see the, that, that little brand now it’s, it’s a real, a real player in the footwear space, you know, to think that they started at four bread in the middle of a recession.

It’s very remarkable. Um, and so I’ll try last year was purchase by, by VF corporation, which is one of the most established, uh, one of the biggest players in apparel and four in the whole world. Um, VF, they’re the owners of the North face. They own bans. They own Timberland. They, uh, before they split, they all, uh, Lee Wrangler, they were part of the same company, but and, um, Janice board, um, you, uh, Eagle Creek, they recently just, um, just sold reef at one point that on Nautica. I mean, it’s just like a big. Big corporation, but now they also own all trends. They moved the company from Logan, Utah to Denver, Colorado, where it’s now a headquarters. So, and, um, I was able to do an internship there and, um, that led me to a full-time job.

Then now turn into like my dream job, you know, um, One of the biggest challenges that they had, you know, was getting, getting designers up to Logan. Yeah, no, not a whole lot of designers, you know what I mean? Whatever they want to commute in. And for the longest time, uh, Altra was labeled as the ugly shoe company.

Like everyone, no one could get, get over the fact that there was. There’s nothing sexy about this company. And for me, I just took whatever opportunity I had, you know, and we were able to, to create some really cool products and grow, uh, learn and, you know, EOS through op ultra that, you know, I was able to go to Asia multiple times, many times to learn the process, you know, and learn all these things.

So, you know, I’m really, really grateful for them, for the opportunity they gave me to just, you know, contribute. But for the most part, it was me. That was, you know, doing the, the learning, you know, because, you know, I, I I’ve always liked shoes. You know, I’ve always been a little bit of a sneaker head and, but then I realized that I didn’t know anything, you know, like from constructions and then it’s here.

Jails and, you know, the possibilities when it’s just not getting that knowledge, you know, what you think, you know, completely changed this. And, uh, for me, I’ll try was that university. He gave me an opportunity to learn all these things that led me to go to two Brooks running, you know, I’ve been to Seattle, you know, he was very, he was, he was the biggest compliment that I, cause, you know, as, as we were designing shoes for.

For running shoes for, um, in, in this, uh, specialty running space, you know, I mean, everyone knows the Brooks is probably the number one company in the United States in, in, in, in a specialty running outlets. And, um, so for them to, and we were always chasing them, you know, when we were competing at I’ll try it. I always felt like we talked about himself.

I remember when they invited me out for the interview, you know, it was like so surreal then, you know, this company that I was chasing for so long, they would look at me and think that I was like a good fit for, you know, come undecided shifts for the so, and they, they, they asked me to do a project for them and the interview process.

And then they invited me to present to, you know, like to their team and. You know, like two, uh, two weeks later I got, I got, uh, an offer and we moved to Seattle and kind of, it was like an amazing experience, you know, Brooks, Brooks, this full of really cool people, you know, um, uh, Brooks, Brooks, the young talent at Brooks is I think, I think, I think Brooke’s running is in great hands, you know, like, The younger talent that I think they, they will make like a huge impact to the brand.

And I think, I think the brand will be, I mean, there’s so many good designers and developers, I said, and their biomechanics team is, is like amazing, you know? Um, Um, um, if, if you, if you ever want like a pair of shoes that work, I mean, you can always rely that Brooksville do it for you, you know, because they have, you know, they, their foundation, the foundation for, for the whole brand is, is based on their research, you know, on the biomechanics lab.

But they have so many people there that are just qualified, capable, and people that love their job. Awesome. They love what they do so that it was hard to leave. You know, it was hard to leave Brooks, but I couldn’t, I couldn’t pass it. An opportunity was presented to me to come back to Utah and, uh, and help, you know, help a black diamond with, uh, with, uh, with development and potentially, you know, uh, growing their F their footwear press.

And so that’s where we, that that brings us to today. 

Don: That’s awesome. That’s amazing. So, yeah. 

Go ahead

Saul: I was going to tell you that just in a nutshell, 

Don: no, it’s good to hear out the whole background. I mean, it seems like you you’ve just followed your dreams and you’ve gone after what you’ve believed in and, and you’ve been able to accomplish.

A whole lot more than most people can. It’s it’s amazing. It’s really, really amazing. Um, I’m interested to hear, because you know, this podcast is centered around people that are, are producing products, right. And, and distributing those products and, and. Getting those in front of people. And I know that there are listeners that are in the apparel space and maybe even in shoes.

And so you’ve now worked at quite a few companies in footwear and you’ve seen the process and you’ve seen what works and doesn’t work. Do you have any insights into the footwear industry that would be useful for up and coming designers or footwear companies?

Saul: So pool, where is it’s an interesting space is very unique. And, you know, even when you have, you know, amp experience in, in other areas, in other products, including apparel, you know, coming into footwear brand, and sometimes it feels like you have to relearn everything, you know, I’ve seen. Do people, uh, you know, go through that very specific skill, a learning curve on, on understanding the whole process, you know, and because, you know, you know, like the, everything that goes behind the apprentice of four are incredibly complex, you know, because I mean, just it’s, it’s, it’s, uh, the inventory’s nightmare, you know, Um, because you have so many sizes and so many colors and, you know, you have to plan so well and you have to have your, your distribution channels.

Is that the, so there’s just, so it just, it seems like it’s like a perfect recipe for failure, you know, just because you need very large investments. You know, in order to make, make it happen because you need so many skews and you need to have, you know, like your orders have to be, you know, this size or whatever, because no one’s going to take, you know, like, uh, like a small.

No like order. So, which brings me to my first point, like, uh, the companies that have been able to be successful in the forest space. They are incredibly passionate. And, but not only passion can only take you so far, but they have a very specific niche. They’re servicing like a specific group of people.

And, and, and because, uh, That’s what’s going to keep them afloat, uh, for, you know, that’s what, so I’ll give you the example of I’ll try, you know, uh, when golden started creating, you know, and we’d go there specific people, then he, uh, he was literally cooking. Uh, she hosted a toaster oven, so he could remove part of the mid-sole because.

Let’s keep believing that some shoes, uh, that needed, needed to be, to be just us just as tall, the heel as they are in the teller that he felt like they didn’t need to be like a, I could not have said on the height of the middle of a shoe. And so he would cook them, cut them, regrew them, and then had them out.

And the shoe that he thought that was already the best shoe that aligned with his vision. So, and the shoe, the shoe, you know, w you know, started, started to work, started to click with an audience. You know what I mean? So, so he was able to pick up that pace. Then now it’s a full on footwear brand, you know, they’re secure the ultra lone peak.

Hmm. And, and ultra the ultra low peak is, is probably isn’t a top three. If not, I mean, my biggie may be second to only the Salomon speak cross as the top selling, uh, trail running shoe in the United States. Yeah. You know, it’s, it’s, it’s a huge shoe for, for REI. So, and the, and for as a designer, I mean, If, if you, if you don’t absolutely love shoes, you will get tired of it.

 You know, it’s one of those things that, you know, and you need to be in it. You know, what’s crazy is like I’ve worked with people in the industry that, or FC a bit around people in the industry that not necessarily love shoes and they see it just as a job. But you can do it because they’re incredibly talented, but you know, like one of the reasons why I wanted to get into food is because I love it.

So there’s, there’s ways to get to it. It’s, it’s, it’s not easy, but you know, a lot of footwear companies, I was looking for an industrial design background and writing, and right now there are other programs. As, at least in the state of Utah, uh, Utah state has, uh, uh, outdoor design and development program that I think is, is very current too.

And, you know, for the, for a really long time, I used to think, you know, I used to say that I wish the state had an industrial design program. Yeah. But I feel like the way they’re structured the program will give. Their graduates are real opportunity to go in in the industry because it’s just so geared towards the outdoor industry.

Um, so I feel like the people that go through that program are there because that’s their, their thing. That’s their niche. And I feel like the program will prepare them to go into that niche. And then the university of Utah has a multi-disciplinary design program. And I know there’s. You know, there’s some people that come come out of that program to establish, uh, some, some really successful companies.

I, I might be wrong, but I think in the Matic, I think the backpack company and, uh, you know, travel backpacks, I think they’re are graduates from that program. 

Don: Yeah. So.

Saul:] I know that you test state at one point was offering, um, for what sign classes that was taught by Steve Jordan, who was the senior design at Altra. I think he still is the CEO of designer ultra. So he designed this. I mean, he, he build this curriculum. That was very unique on to teach people how to design for wear.

And it’s all based on his experience and everything that he had to learn from the ground up. Steve is Steve is, is through show it. And it’s a great designer. And I think he, he, his ability to his ability to design only comes second to the ability to teach. He’s a great teacher. So, um, He taught me so many things, but, uh, when they, when the ones, it’s the way, it’s just like, there’s many roads to, because people, a lot of times they’ll know that you could have any degree and you could be a footwear developer, you know?

Um, so let’s say that like, as a designer works with the developer, the developer is that bridge between the designer and the factory in Asia. That’s where most of the issues are. Are being made. Everything is shifting to Vietnam or Indonesia out of China. A lot of the development centers or footwear are still in China, but most of the stuff is shifting to Vietnam.

But, uh, so a developer can be, you know, you can have a business degree. I mean, I’ve, I’ve worked with developers with all different degrees. You know, a lot of them share like a love for food where, or at least have interest in footwear. And they, you know, as, as they, they, they, uh, they jumped into this industry.

They, they it’s pretty much matching the whole process. It’s, it’s, it’s a really cool job. It’s a really cool job. I work with really awesome developers. They have to be our Oregon’s. Yeah. It’s it’s, it’s a great one. And then another one is that. And another way to get into for it’s also to be a product line manager or a category, you know, director, category manager, which means that, you know, um, so when you designed the, I’ll tell you I’ll give you like a, like a big picture, uh, process.

So the product line managers, they come up with a brief, which, you know, that’s where all the, the market, the market insights get gathered into this brief that, you know what they should be. It would be, they put it together as a product line manager. He gets handed to the designers and then the designer is, you know, uh, design the shale and the developers make the shoe.

Hm. Like a team that’s always working together to, to make sure that what is design is what the market needs or, or whether the consumer. You know, one, so that’s kind of like, so there’s, there’s multiple avenues to getting to forward and have just as much action as you’re, as a footwear designer. And you know what I mean?

Don: Yeah. No, that makes sense. It’s interesting because it feels like to me, the landscape for, um, physical products in general and in. Like these types of processes are all ironed out. Right. But it still feels like today is a weird time where products, you know, just in general, it’s, it’s changing. It feels like there’s, there’s almost a production revolution happening today.

Saul: You know, what something very interesting is, is I don’t know if you’ve ever, you have friends who started companies just by. You know, contacting someone through Ali express or Alibaba, you know, and two weeks later they have their first sample. Yeah. You know, and, and so that, I think changed the game because someone, so one of the, who, so when I’m ambitious or someone who really went to had an idea suddenly had.

Like a real shot at starting something. So when people, like I had, I had people that were, was, I was still at school or fresh out of school. So many people would come to me and be like, Hey, I have an idea for this product. He designed it for me, you know? And, uh, a lot of times that was kind of like the, where people would do their first thought is like, Oh, I need someone to decide my idea.

You know, as my first advice was just like, have you looked that, you know, have you looked in that expressed to see if there’s something that gets really close to what you are doing? And then. Get it, modify it. They’ll do it for you. And then you can get going, you know, and then you can save all this costs, but designing of engineering of more opening modes of, you know, trips to Asia, sad

for, you know, something like that, you know, it’s happening. So that was, I think that completely changed, you know, so many things for people. Totally like your idea, and you can shape an idea and have something tangible that you could potentially take to a sales meeting or, or, or do a crowdfunding campaign, you know?

Don: Yeah. 

So I’m not a hundred percent familiar personally with how these new services like Alibaba or AliExpress fully work. Is it literally just you go on there as a host set wholesaler, or are you able to connect with the original manufacturer and start, you know, start, uh, uh, having the manufacturer product for you?

Saul: So 99% of the time, you’re going to be talking to a broker. So it’s someone who is going to make a profit on getting business to a factory. Yeah. You know, in, and if you like sometimes see, like, when people either speak the language or have an ability to travel, they might be able to, to, to, to find the manufacturer because that’s when.

Your margins really, really, really improve. Yeah. I mean, I totally forgot about like my, I skipped one of my biggest learning opportunities that I had is so when I was in Provo, before I got into shoes, um, there was, there was a company called chameleons and, you know, it was like this sunglasses that. They, they, they had, um, little hinges that would make the arms of the sunglasses, you know, changeable.

So you could have like different colors. Yeah. It was a really fun concept. He was, he was, you know, what the company had. That was amazing. The product was the predator West. Okay. But they had, uh, Like a team of hustlers, you know, the, the big brothers, I J J a big arm and chomping out and Justin being, um, you know, those guys hustle there, their work ethic is second to none.

They just like really, really they work, they work, they work their work and they’re driven, you know, and I, I admire them so much for it. For that attitude, but so the reason why chameleons was able to, to, to be, and then when we changed the name to KZ is because when they started

to the name, chameleons is that they change the ch for a K and at the end it had a Z. I was like, let’s take the K and the Z. That, that may your brand unique, and that will transition to calling the brand KV. And we were getting a little real attraction, you know, we have BDS and then we were deciding, uh, backpacks, you know, so we were turning into like a enough portable equipment for four day adventurous.

It was nothing, you know, beyond, but so, um, But the, the thing that was, was, was, uh, kept the business, you know, healthy was that I, I don’t even recall how Sean made the made disconnection, but Sean was working directly with the manufacturer. And during my, my two years with them, there was many. You know, this, you know, outsourcing companies that would try to get our business because our, our volume were getting high enough, but no one got even close to what the prices that we were getting directly from the manufacturer, you know?

So, um, that’s so if, if people are starting, uh, you know, if it’s it’s important, it’s, I’ll say this, it is your relationship with your factory will determine. The health and the success of your business. Yeah. So, um, yes, that was the case when we were in Casey and after I left, I left KZ specifically to do shoes.

You know, it was, we were, he was fun. We were creating some really fun things there, KZ and, um, And eventually he was sold to, they sold the company and they made money from it. So, wow. That’s a thing that’s like, they, I think they took it to Ohio, you know, and, and, uh, yeah, it was, it was a very cool project for them out of our marketing idea that we had.

[00:36:00] Like we would really want it to, to, to use social media, um, mostly, um, Instagram to promote the sunglasses at us. And we created the adventure hunt with, which was like a, like a modern day treasure hunt. And, and, you know, it was really cool because that the marketing idea. Is why they took to shark tank as a company, you know?

Don: Right.

Saul: So it was, it was, I mean, he was cool that, that, you know, that something that we were using that at the time was

as a marketing tool to sell more sunglasses, uh, you know, he grew into, into. Into, like an actual, um, business model on that company that, that, that they were able to take or shot attack. And it was, he was cool. He was really cool, you know, that I venture hunt conducted CRISPR, the, uh, who, uh, was promoting vacations in Panama through some clients.

And so we were, you know, we, we got, uh, I would say, well to connect, uh, Casey with, with, uh, Taylor troop. Who is the founder of stands? Cause they would send us like no status. So we could throw in that the, the, um, Um, that into the treasure box, as you know, we connected with cuddle pack seeds so they could, so they could send some of their packs.

So he was, it was really, it was a really cool time. It was really fun. 

Don: Awesome. This has been super insightful and you’ve really opened my eyes to a lot of things I didn’t know previously about this industry. And I think it’s going to be helpful for a lot of. Of our listeners. So before I let you go here, do you have any sort of advice or, um, direction that you’d want to give people that are involved in the product? Uh, product business space?

Saul: I think, I mean, I think we are getting into a time where it’s really relevant that we think about the impact. Of her, of ideas, you know, you know, I think, uh, we need to, you know, I mean, I’ll tell you from, from my designer’s perspective, uh, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s sad to see that sometimes we just design stuff that is going to, uh, feel, you know, or end up in a landfill, you know, Quick and taking it forever too, to come policy and you know, and so our decisions have a far greater impact than just where are we going to sell to, you know?

And so I’ll tell you, like, for me, it’s just like, so the, I don’t know if you knew this, but your color choice. Okay. Have more or less impact in pollution. Because there are certain dyes that require, you know, more water or less water, you know, it’s just, it’s just that your decisions down to color are either more or less impactful.

Don: Yeah.

Saul: So, you know, part of, part of like the stuff that we do now is just literally trying to. No,

that are, that are conscious about our, our, you know, our environment that, that, that, you know, that also, like, I love that I start deciding things that are easy to build. So the stuff that we make in Asia is not burdensome to the workers, you know? Yeah. So, you know, I think, I think, you know, if I can say anything to, to, uh, to a product precedence, it’s like, think about the impact, like don’t we have to really like.

Get thinky up by the hard question, you know, like, how is this product going to, what’s the true impact of what I’m trying to sell? I don’t think I, I don’t, I don’t longer subscribe to, with the revenue, you know, with driving the Irving companies, you know? Yeah. I know. I mean, let me rephrase that. All companies are rounded, driven, you know, that’s just, that’s just what it is, but I think we could have.

Mission so we can be transparent and we can really, you know, be striving to leave this place better than we found it. Yeah. So, um, don’t take, I would tell people don’t take the shortcut. Yeah. You know, don’t don’t don’t, don’t just, don’t go for the shallow answer. Yeah, dig deep and find stuff that is meaningful because also those brands are the ones that, that, you know, stay standing at the end, you know?

Yeah. So that’ll be like my little nugget, I guess.

Don: I love it. Well, perfect. Thank you so much for taking the time. Fascinating stuff. I feel like the two of us could probably just keep going. I keep listening to you for hours. I’m glad that we were able to get connected though today. Um, if any of our listeners wanted to connect with you, is there a way they could reach out to you?

Saul: Yeah, so, I mean, right now, You can email me at well it’s social media. Like what I, what I use Instagram. I am what I use the most that it’s at S a dot Z, a dot K a . Yeah. Um, and then, and then that’s probably like the best way, and people can always like, find, find me on LinkedIn as well. Perfect. You know, I’m very active in used to look for Sal Santos, a black diamond I’ll come up, you know, and I try to, I try to respond to anyone.

Don: Awesome. Sweet. Okay. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. Saul: Have a good day.