Robert Birnecker, CEO and co-founder of KOVAL Distillery, joins us in the next episode of The Physical Product Movement Podcast to share how he and his wife started KOVAL Distillery and the challenges and opportunities along the way.
KOVAL Distillery is a whiskey, gin, and specialty spirits manufacturer that uses unique grains, signature techniques, and the best quality distillate. The grains are sourced from organic Midwestern farms, supporting the local economy and sustainable agriculture.
Robert details how they had to adapt their product for the US market and the benefits of constantly improving your product according to the customer’s feedback.
He also talks about the advantages of manufacturing in-house to ensure quality and adapt to changing market conditions.
Listen on Apple Podcasts here or Spotify here.
Ken: Welcome to the Physical Product Movement, a podcast by Fiddle, we share stories of the world’s most ambitious and exciting physical product brands to help you capitalize on the monumental change in how, why and where consumers buy. I’m your host, Ken Ojuka.
Ken: In today’s interview. I speak with Robert Birnecker, CEO and co-founder of KOVAL distillery, a line of whiskey, gin, and specialty spirits using unique and organic grains from Midwestern farms. They’re based in Chicago and are huge supporters of the local community. Koval was started by Robert and his wife Sonat in 2008.
Ken: Before the rise of the craft brewery scene They were one of the first. Small distilleries. And have had the opportunity to ride this huge craft distillery trend. We talked about the pivots they made before landing on their current line of products and the challenges and opportunities of working with great distributors and how that has helped them, especially with international expansion.
Ken: We also talk about the advantages of manufacturing in-house and owning the entire process to ensure quality and to be able to adapt to the changing market. conditions Robert also talked about how in-house production has allowed them to experiment quickly based on customer feedback to release new products regularly.
Ken: I enjoyed this interview with Robert and learned a lot about what it takes to succeed as a brand in a challenging and competitive space. Enjoy!
Ken: All right, Robert, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for jumping on.
Robert: Thank you very much for having me. I’m excited to be here.
Ken: Yeah. I’m excited to talk to you and I know that you’re from Austria. Is that correct?
Robert: I am, yes.
Robert: I’m from a small town, Innsbruck. And I met my wife in Washington, DC while I was working for the Austrian Embassy there and ultimately we ended up here in Chicago where Sonat is from.
Ken: Ok! Yeah. Awesome. And we, of course, want to hear the whole story of how you started your company and the motivations behind it.
Ken: And you’re in Chicago, right? Why don’t you just tell the audience how you ended up in Chicago?
Robert: So ultimately, Sonat is from Chicago and when we were looking at what to do with our lives in 2007, we had just returned from Berlin and started our old careers back
Robert: I was the deputy press secretary at the Austrian Embassy in Washington, DC. And Sonat was a professor in Baltimore. We looked at it and said, okay, this is interesting, these are our lives, but ultimately we want it to work together. We want it to produce something. And we looked at what we could do. Our first son was on the way and we didn’t want to be stuck in traffic anymore.
Robert: And for 95 and 95 respectively. And we looked at options. We looked at opening up the restaurant, opening up a coffee shop. And said it’s just not in our real house. It’s just not what we’re good at. And then a newspaper or a time magazine article came out about the resurgence of craft distilleries or a potential new wave of craft distilleries in the United States.
Robert: And we said, huh, this is interesting. Because I come from a family of distillers and we had just brought over some of my grandfather’s spirits and people had asked us where to buy them, because this is interesting. This is really, maybe this is something we could do. And three months later we still had our orders.
Robert: We had started looking at spaces in both Baltimore, but also in Chicago. And we decided that we wanted it to be with family. Which was Chicago and that’s where we ended up.
Ken: Okay. Awesome. All right. Well that gives us a little bit of a picture into, you know, what drives you guys, some of the things that are most important to you and you know, obviously family and you know, work-life balance not being stuck on a freeway all the time.
Ken: Why don’t you you know, you mentioned that you had a quote that you try to live by, or just something that motivates you, do you mind just let’s take a tangent and maybe just share that quote with us real quick.
Robert: Yes. I mean, one of my favorite quotes is “insanity is doing the same thing over and expecting different results.”
Robert: I mean, something that for me has just resonated because you can’t get up in the morning and then change your habits or look for something different and not do the work for it. So you really have to change. You really have to explore different avenues and break out a little bit, and then you can see different results.
Robert: But. It’s hard and also for us, what that meant for the company was completely changing our careers, starting something completely different, leaving our secure, safe jobs and making a go for it.
Ken: Yeah. So did you mention that your wife was teaching at that time?
Robert: Sonat was a professor in Baltimore and she was teaching at the time, but it was really important for us to work together and it was back in the day. I had a very nice and cushy nine to five office job. And her teaching was okay as well time-wise but we had no problem going from a more secure and controlled environment, actually to working almost all the time but it was something that we really cared about and just working together really helped as well.
Ken: Yeah. So you mentioned, okay, so obviously your business is a distillery. It sounds like you come from a family of distillers. Can you just tell us a little bit about that? You mentioned your grandpa, you know, your grandpa’s distillery
Robert: So, yes. In Austria, my grandfather has a farm and a spidery distillery operation. Now he’s in his nineties, so he’s retired. He still does it on the side for fun, which wants to do. But the actual business is retired. And when I grew up, I always had to help on the family farm and I had to help make cider and distill a little bit. We were always told that this is something that might die down.
Robert: Something that is not really a long-term future. We were told to go study and go to university and go into a different field. So you can imagine when I told my family and those went on and told the family that we were leaving our careers and starting up a distillery, everyone kind of looked at us in a very funny way.
Ken: And, but then you still went forward, you know? So what do you think was the motivation or what was the drive?
Robert: The drive was really, we wanted to not be in an office anymore. We wanted to make something with our hands. We want it to create something, have our own company and certainly work together and have the opportunity to be with family.
Robert: That’s really in a nutshell, why we.
Ken: Okay. And it sounds like, so you had some of the skills of how to do this. You were doing it from a young age. What did you need to learn? What else did you need to pick up before you could actually start a distillery?
Robert: That is a lot, because the first months were extremely hard because I mentioned.
Robert: We were very quick in ordering distills, we actually had a lot of support in the city of Chicago. The city has been fantastic to us. The older men of the 47th ward at the time helped us secure our location for the distillery, our original location. But we were completely green when it came to the alcohol industry in the United States and also what it actually meant.
Robert: So when we started out from the production side, I actually had my grandfather come over, who was in his eighties at the time. And we started working and mashing airs because the original idea was to have a fruit, just a fruit distillery in the US and it was a lot to do. And he told me, I didn’t even know I could work this hard anymore until I came over to the US and it was really exciting working with him and seeing how much joy that brought to all of us and it was unbelievably hard, but we made it, we made some pair distillates. We made some grain distillate. We really started making the product, but then all the things we had to learn aside from just making the project. When it came to distribution, how to sell the product with the three tier system in Illinois and controlled states in other parts of the country, that was a lot to learn the sales side, the marketing side, the legal side.
Robert: When we started at our original. We weren’t allowed to have a tasting room or a visitor center. We weren’t even allowed to give out samples or have people come in and look at the distill really. So, Sonat took it upon herself to change the law in Illinois, to allow for tasting rooms and onsite sales and visitors.
Ken: If I understand correctly, you guys just recently opened a tasting room?
Robert: So we recently were able to do it. Really opened a visitor center and our tasting room slash bar which was already in the spring of 2020. But as we all know, that was not a very good time to really open a facility like this.
Ken: Sure. Well, I do want to get into the distribution and sales side of everything, but I did just have a couple more questions about the product, right?
Ken: So coming up with the name, how did that come about? And you mentioned that it was initially a sort of fruit you know, fruit beverages that you were focused on. And how did that evolve? I wanna understand that story a little bit.
Robert: Of course. So in Austria, and where I come from and how I was classically trained, more or less everybody makes fruit distillers. It’s the highest art of distilling and very difficult, but also highly valued in Europe. So, yeah, grandpa or OTV in France or in Austria. It’s pear brandy, plum brandy. So that is what people drink mostly or what they really look for as a traditional central European drink. And we thought this would be a great idea to bring to the US as well.
Robert: So we started out having taken a little longer to get the licenses and to get the distilling operation going. Ordering pears, and these pears came from Washington state because you couldn’t get anything anymore in Michigan or in Europe. The pears were in transit. I kept watching the tracking and where they were and everything looked pretty good, but it was already very cold.
Robert: So around Missouri, all of a sudden, the temperatures tipped below freezing, oh, this is bad. And needless to say, the pears started to freeze a little bit. And when they arrived, we had to process them immediately, stored pears, or any fruit after it’s frozen for distilling because it’ll just start molding and you just don’t have a chance to do it.
Robert: So we had to process all of the pears we had ordered right away and we did, and I think we turned out a pretty decent product for what we had to work with, but that was it. And we realized we couldn’t order more piers or any other fruit. And we thought, well, what do we do now? That’s one of the things we also learned in business over the last years is that you have to be quick on your feet.
Robert: And we said, okay, well, what else is available? We are in the Heartland of grains. Let’s make some white whiskey and let’s start distilling some whiskey and ultimately there was a really lucky thing for us, because most people in the US drink whiskey, they don’t drink OTVs or fruit brandies. They drink whiskey
Robert: And when we had to start mashing grain, it was actually something that we weren’t prepared for equipment wise, but we made it work with the very rudimentary buckets we had then bucketing hot water and hand mixing with a hand mixer. And ultimately now 98% of our production is grain-based.
Ken: Yeah, that’s interesting. And you bring up a really good point about, you know, and I’m interested in your opinion on this. It seems like business, right? You kind of have your plan and the products that you choose to focus on. But then for a variety of factors, you know, what does it, no plan survives first contact with the real world or something like that.
Robert: We had it all completely planned out. I’m a big planner and my wife and I had this all written up and it looked very beautiful and a couple of pages of paper. And then the minute we solve what needs to be done. We just took the business plan and changed them.
Ken: Yeah. Yeah. And so it’s a tough balance between, you know, kind of sticking to your guns and you know, trying to execute on a plan and being, you know, just persevering right through obstacles and things, but then also being willing to change.
Ken: When the facts change when the situation changes, whether it’s, you know, customer feedback or it’s in your case, you realize that it’d be tough to produce a fruit distill. It’s, you know, going forward, you know, what else could you do? So yeah, I mentioned your opinion on that. And what do you think about that?
Robert: You have to always adapt and that’s when you asked me for my quote, to do the same thing over and over as well. That’s what that quote means to me as well. You really have to always look for something new and you have to look for improvements, and customer feedback is unbelievably valuable for us. So we try to listen to our customers.
Robert: That’s all is where the visitor center and the tasting room are so important to us because we actually, this is the one way we are able to have direct contact with our consumers in the one-on-one setting. So they can give us feedback when they taste the products, what they think about it.
Robert: We’ve put in new products from time to time on our tours to see how the feedback is on them. And I think that is one of the big benefits of being a craft distillery. I mean, we’re one of the largest craft distilleries in the United States, but we’re still at a size where we can adapt and we can change our ways. And that’s what people also look for. They look for different things, something unique, and we have to provide it to them.
Ken: Right. And obviously right now, you know, there’s this trend of, you know, craft beers, craft distilleries. But you guys you know, you started on what in 2008 you know, what was the state of that market?
Ken: Like, you know, at that time?
Robert: So in 2008, there were only a handful of distilleries operating in the United States. I know that is hard to imagine when you go to a liquor store and see the whiskeys and you see the gins, but some companies have 30 brands, some large companies, or more in there are really little producer variety.
Robert: Let’s call it that where it came from different places and different distilleries. So when we started out. This was such an interesting field that nobody was there. And we were able to really start small. Most people didn’t even know that you could make alcohol outside of Chicago, especially whiskey and bring it outside of Kentucky.
Robert: And they thought, whoa, you guys are in Chicago. How does this work? So we have to do a lot of education as well and explain to people. And it was the beginning of a huge trend because now we’re up to over 2,500 distilleries and it’s still a growing industry. And we were able to hopefully also help this industry grow a little bit, first of all, with starting the distillery, but also with our sister company, Kothe Distilling Technologies, where we said we needed to do something to establish some standards and establish some training and really tell people how to do this.
Robert: So nobody runs into problems. And we started three-day workshops and five to eight advanced workshops where we actually had the people in and trained them in how to distill both on equipment, but also showed them the theoretical parts of legal constraints, marketing, sales, all that is, is really important.
Robert: And we were able to have over 3,800 people through our workshops and courses.
Ken: Yeah, that’s really interesting. And I see it as you know, you know, potentially good business. What I’m curious about is did you think about it, like you were maybe creating competition, you know, and I dunno what, what was going through you guys’ head when you were thinking about that?
Robert: I think we always thought that we just grow together. I never saw this as creating competition. I think you have to look at it from a different perspective. If we’re all in the same boat and it’s called craft, or however people want to refer to it. If you have a good craft product, then people are more willing to try another good craft product.
Robert: And if they’ve had a bad experience, they won’t try your product either. So for us, it was important to really raise the standard and the quality of the industry as a whole. So we could all grow together and ultimately compared to the big producers, we’re just a drop in the ocean. Still, we only have a very small percentage of the market share as craft producers. So that really. It was never a competition.
Ken: Okay. I see. Yeah. It’s this attitude of sort of abundance and that there’s a lot you know, I mean, it’s just such a tiny industry, especially back then, it’s grown quite a bit, but that you’re growing the whole market, the industry is in general, you know, you’re growing the category.
Robert: Yeah, exactly. And that’s what it was. We had to grow the category. We have to grow together. So a very environment with distillers. I mean, we kind of stick together and despite having many more distilleries out there now we still know a lot of people and a lot of people connect and we now have, and much better organization to group together and really do some, yeah, some exchange on a much higher level. So it’s really helped, the growth has helped everybody.
Ken: Okay. Yeah, I got it. That makes sense. Yeah let’s switch a little bit to the marketing and sales aspect of this, you know? So, you know, you flew your grandfather over and you started making, you know, some of your initial products. How did you know, sell those initial bottles that you guys produced and then you know, how did you expand from there?
Robert: So the alcohol industry is very specific with how you can sell. And as I mentioned before, in 2008, when we started, direct sales were not possible, the largest didn’t exist, then we couldn’t sell out of our store. So the only way we could do this was through a distribution partner. You start with a distribution partner in your local state. We’ve found someone, we started working together and the first bottles, literally bottles. We’re not even talking about cases left at our facility. The first couple of months, it was a slow start because people didn’t know us.
Robert: So we started shipping a case, started shipping another case, and started moving from there. And after a couple months we realized that distribution was picking up. So people were finding out more about us. We got into a local chain called Binnies, which really helped us grow. And from there it just started growing and growing.
Robert: And as we grew in Illinois, We were able to go to Trader Joe’s in Wisconsin, and Indiana, and actually pick up distribution there. And it started growing outward. So Wisconsin, Indiana, New York, and just one state after the other, over the past years, we were able to add, and now we have almost complete distribution throughout the United States.
Robert: We have our own importing company into Europe, where we are in 27 countries. We have distribution in Japan, China, Singapore, Philippines, Korea. So it’s really grown from a very small, almost bottle by bottle business to being all over the world.
Ken: Yeah. That’s great. So what do you attribute that to? Right. I guess I could imagine, you know, somebody, somebody else makes a product and, you know, signs up with maybe even that same distributor, but doesn’t necessarily have the same success. So. You know, their product doesn’t move quite as quickly. Was there anything that you guys did to support the distributors you know, like any sort of marketing or sales efforts or any, anything like that you think helped you out? Or do you think it was just, maybe it was just your product? You know, what would you attribute it to?
Robert: I think it’s always a combination of things. And for us, it was a combination of being at the right place at the right. So we started relatively early and we were one of the early distilleries in a lot of those markets. I mean, we were one of the first small producers in Japan. From us that I saw on shelves next to the big guys. And I think that’s true for a lot of our states, but also our products are quite unique. We have very unique whiskeys, which are only focusing on the harsh cut of the, this led.
Robert: So the center of the, this lip, nothing heavy, nothing oily they’re fully organic certified, and they have a unique flavor profile because we use very unique. It’s such as Millard or a boat that we have. And I think that made us special enough to really get a lot of attention from distributors and from places when we started out with them.
Robert: Now, once you have the attention and once you’re early, that is a great start. And I think that was our door opener. But we also put a lot of effort into supporting these markets and supporting these distributors by having people on the ground, going to trade shows making sure we have good distributor relations by communicating with them, providing them all the necessary POS materials, sales information, and just continuously making sure that the product flow is intact.
Ken: So what other, you know, what advice, you know, you gave us a few things there, but what other advice could you give to business owners who are looking to get their products onto shelves in stores? You know, w what mistakes do you see people making or what would you tell them to do
Robert: The primary advice? And you mentioned that earlier, don’t give up. A lot of this and a lot in businesses just sticking with it. And just trying to work hard and making sure it actually in the end is where you want it to be.
Ken: Yeah, you know, I always look at the alcohol market as being pretty interesting because, you know, obviously you have a big push towards, you know, D2C right now.
Ken: A lot of CPG products, you know, are finding success by going through online, directly to their customers. But that’s not really possible in alcohol. Do you ever think that’s going to change or you know, are there any sort of, you know, is there any legislation that’s being pushed that, you know, I haven’t even looked at all, but do you think it’s possible to be able to sell alcohol directly to consumers?
Robert: There are ways, and it’s a state by state situation. A lot of retailers actually sell to consumers and you know, all the popular delivery services do it. There are specific ones for alcohol now as well. So there are ways that it’s easier now for consumers to order things online, but that’s been the case in Europe for a long time
Robert: And I think it’s growing in the U S as well, but in most states, and especially for our kind of alcohol and distilled spirits, direct shipment is not possible. So direct shipment to consumers is not possible. It always has to go through a third party distributor or special service. Yeah, that changes. I don’t know.
Robert: It’s something we’ll have to see. And it’s also something that is the same with distribution. They’re their pluses and minuses with that, because we’re actually very happy that we have distribution partners. You can’t cover all this ground yourself. There are economies of scale that distributors have.
Robert: Cover ground. We could never cover it. And with the ship direct shipping, there are similar similarities in that area as well. That the question is yes. Would it be nice maybe, but then also it causes a whole slew of questions and problems and logistical things you need to deal with.
Ken: Right. Right. Okay, well, you guys, obviously you started manufacturing in-house, you know, it was like to just talk a little bit about manufacturing do you still do it in-house or do you guys contract it out or, you know, and how would you advise, you know, somebody that is maybe looking to get into you know, distilling a products, you know, would you recommend that they do it in-house or go to, you know, like, a manufacturer, a co-packer or somebody you know about?
Robert: So the, that is a very long standing question in our industry actually, and I can value that we are making a hundred percent of our products in-house. We get the grains in from a place in the Midwest, mill them in-house, mash them in-house, ferment them in-house, and then of course also distill it all in-house.
Robert: We also do our complete bottling and alcohol finishing operations at our facility. And that’s been a very important factor for us because that’s why we started KOVAL to really have the ability to control the process, to make things. And we want it to keep all of this in-house. Now we also know people in the industry that didn’t really want to have
Robert: the manufacturing part and simply want to have an alcohol brand that is an option that you can pursue in this world, absolutely. And there are a number of co-packers out there that will do that for you. So you basically come with a label design and an idea of how you want the bottle. And what product you want to have in it
Robert: And then you kind of hot half the finished product for you and all the distribution and sales are usually on you, but the packaging up until the case is done by someone else.
Ken: Yeah. And obviously you guys favor the former and you know, take pride in your manufacturing and doing things in-house. What would you say the main advantages are to doing that and, you know, maybe some surprising advantages that you didn’t predict when you first started.
Robert: One thing that we experienced when there was a whiskey and barrel shortage, for sure is that it certainly helped us because we have full control over our entire process.
Robert: And we have no dependency on either liquid supplier or anyone else who may not be able to provide what we kind of need at the moment. So we see that as a very positive effect on our business for the size that we are, that we have complete independence there. But again, I don’t want to say the other business model isn’t viable.
Robert: It’s a very different approach. You know, it’s the difference between having a manufacturing facility and having a brand and we kind of have to do both, but we also enjoy doing both. And the advantage with that is first of all, the independence, but also being able to adapt much quicker and make more unique products in a way, if we want to make another whiskey that, that is unique with a blend of familiar corn and oak together,
Robert: As an example, we can go downstairs today. I mean, it needs a couple of years to age, but at least it’s made with gin. If we decide to have a different gin formula, we can have that to market in a couple of weeks. So that gives us a lot more ways to react and to really do what we want to do.
Ken: Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, the experimentation, you know, especially in today’s sort of hyper competitive world is really a big advantage that I see, you know, from my vantage point and that, you know, being able to adapt. That is the game. Right. And being able to do that quickly and provide customers with these unique experiences that everybody’s demanding, you know, unique products, unique you know, even just the branding and the look and having complete control of all that you know, doing the depth so quickly.
Robert: It’s also what we’ve marketed our brand as. It’s authentic. We really have made it all from start to finish, starting very small and to where we are now. And when people come on a tour and visit us, they see exactly that we’re doing what we’ve always said we were doing. So there is no smoke and mirrors.
Robert: There is no brand story that some grandfather hid the recipe deep down and when changing the garden, they found the recipe. This doesn’t exist in our company. We said exactly who we are and we’ve stuck to that. And I think people very much value authenticity and the real and true story. And that’s who we are.
Ken: Yeah. Yeah. And it comes through, I think it comes through just in your product and in your marketing and sales and that authentic authenticity is so important. And it’s becoming more important. Just you know, kind of wrapping up here, you know, why don’t you tell us about, you know, the rest of 2022. What do you have coming up that you’re looking forward to? Any news that you can tell us, you know, just tell us about, you know, your forward outlook?.
Robert: So I think one of the situations we’re looking forward to is some trade shows coming back. It’s been a long time that we were able to interact more with our business partners, but also consumers at trade shows and having a little more face to face time.
Robert: So that is I think, a very exciting situation for 2022 plus our outside patio and our tasting room are going to be open for the first time for the spring, summer and the fall season. So we’re very excited about that because we’ll do a lot of events in, on the patio, in the parking lot to really enjoy the beautiful summer we have here in Chicago.
Robert: And last but not least, I think we are seeing a lot of the partners we had in the on-premise world. So bars and restaurants are coming back and opening up in working with them. Maybe I think it is going to be another exciting moment we’ll have in 2022.
Ken: Great. Great. Well, let’s switch to the quick fire round. I just have four quick questions for you. And then and then we’ll wrap this thing up. What is one tool or resource that you feel has helped you a lot in your current position?
Robert: I would say my programming skills. I am a hobby, but also in my previous life, I did quite a bit of networking and programming. So we designed our own database and our own control system for our distills and for our product flow. So I think that has helped a lot.
Ken: That’s pretty awesome. And as a programmer myself, I am trying not to ask you any questions about that because I think that’s all the rabbit hole. We’ll keep this as a quick fire round, but I’d love to connect with you over that another time.
Ken: What is a book that you can recommend to the audience?
Robert: That was a really good question. Top of my head, the book I love. It’s a German book, which is a little tricky, but it is one of the Germans who has really, he’s actually Austrian. It’s written in German. It’s having an Ingrid and it’s about the Austrian National Development and how the Austrian Soul or Austrian The country developed and I think it’s really helped me quite a bit in my own development and in how I see what’s going on in business.
Ken: Do you know the name of that book?
Robert: Hold on, let me grab it out here. Official Title, English. It’s the Austrian Soul and in German, it’s Österreichische Seele
Ken: Okay, awesome. Thank you. What is one piece of advice that you would give to your 21 year old?
Robert: I think one piece of advice is to be kind and to look at other people around you and to try to give back when you have the moment to.
Ken: Yeah, I think that’s great, especially at this time. And I think we need much more of that. What is a one person maybe in your field of work or another entrepreneur that you would love to take to lunch?
Robert: Who would I take to lunch? Ideally, I’d like to have lunch, Bill Gates. But in my field I’d like to take it to lunch. Wes Henderson, who I haven’t seen in a long time, started Angel’s Envy. And I just like to have another lunch chat with him because it’s been almost a decade since we last connected. And he is somebody that we share a lot of experiences with in this field.
Ken: Okay, great. Yeah. Bill Gates, you are a programmer. Aren’t you?
Robert: Yes. There are a couple of questions I’d like to ask him.
Ken: Yeah, me too. That’d be fascinating. Okay. Well, I love this interview. I think this has been fantastic for the audience, a lot of great content. I think some real lessons that they can incorporate into their own. Do you have any sort of parting words that you know that you would say to other entrepreneurs out there that are currently in the grind and trying to make a business, trying to make a great product? You know, what would you say to somebody that’s in the middle of that?
Robert: I would say to just go for it, you have to believe in yourself and you have to go for what you really believe in. And if it’s something. You think it can stand on its own and has merit, then you can probably make it work.
Ken: Okay. Awesome. That’s a great place to leave. Robert, appreciate you jumping on
Robert: Yeah, thank you so much for having me!
Ken: Thank you so much for everything! Yeah
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