In this episode, we’re joined by Nona Lim, Founder and CEO of Nona Lim; a fresh, modern, and clean label Asian CPG brand, that distributes healthy Asian comfort food in retail stores such as Whole Foods, Kroger, and Costco.
Nona, a successful and experienced entrepreneur, tells us about how she started her journey competing professionally in fencing tournaments, working her way to the Olympics, before eventually moving to San Francisco and launching a meal kit delivery business.
Nona also talks about what motivated her to productize some of her dishes, which eventually became her very own CPG brand.
In addition to this, Nona reveals some of the supply chain challenges her business is currently facing as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic and how they are shifting things to adapt to the changing landscape of distribution.
Nona also disclosed some of the criteria she uses to assess whether to manufacture some of her products in-house while continuing to use co-packers for other product lines.
Listen on Apple Podcasts here or Spotify here.
Transcript
Ken: Welcome to the Physical Product Movement, a podcast by Fiddle, we share stories of the world’s most ambitious and exciting physical product brands to help you capitalize on the monumental change in how, why, and where consumers buy. I’m your host, Ken Ojuka.
Ken: Today I had the opportunity to interview Nona Lim, Founder, and CEO of Nona Lim, a fresh, modern, and clean label Asian CPG brand known as a wonderful guest with a deep knowledge of operations and distribution in the CPG space. They distribute their Asian food line of products through Whole Foods, Kroger, Costco, and many other stores.
Ken: They were recently crowned winner of the Kroger’s go fresh and local competition. A huge deal, Nona tells a story of going from competing professionally in fencing and almost making the Olympics to moving to San Francisco and launching a meal kit delivery business. Well, before they were popular and how that motivated her to productize some of her dishes, which eventually became the CPG brand.
Ken: Nona talks about some of the supply chain challenges. Every brand is facing right now, due to the COVID pandemic and how they’re shifting things in their business to deal with some of these challenges. She talks about the criteria that she uses to figure out whether to manufacture some of her products in-house while continuing to use co-packers for other product lines.
Ken: It’s a really valuable crash course from a successful and experienced entrepreneur. I think you’ll enjoy the interview. All right. Nona thank you for jumping on with me. I appreciate it.
Nona: Oh, I’m so happy to be here. Thanks for having me.
Ken: Yeah. Welcome to the podcast. I know, you’re busy, you know, I’m busy, you know, and we’ve kind of had a hard time, you know, sinking up, but I’m glad that we’re finally here.
Nona: Absolutely. We made it happen.
Ken: Well, I’ve been looking forward to talking to you. I think you’ve got a unique brand and a great story. And we definitely want to dig into it. But first we wanted to start with a quote. Is there a quote that comes to mind that, you know, you like to live by, or just something that you like to keep in mind.
Nona: You know, this is a quote that I’ve been reflecting on a lot more these last two years, and this actually something from Proverbs and it’s called, Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean, not unto your own understanding in all your ways, acknowledge Him. And he shall direct your paths. The funny thing is that I’ve not been spiritual religious for the last two decades.
Nona: And I still don’t consider myself religious at this point, but it’s something that I’ve really been thinking a lot about, especially, you know, with all the upheavals that have happened in the last few years. It just reminded me that being an entrepreneur, there’s just so many unknowns, so many things that are outside of my control, like.
Nona: Well, most people, I certainly didn’t fall because of the pandemic right. All of the supply chain impacts and everything. And so that’s something that I kind of lean on sometimes when I feel that, there’s so many things that I just don’t have control. Which is very, very different from my previous career prior to becoming an entrepreneur.
Nona: When I was a consultant, when I sold that, I had the smarts and the capabilities to figure things out and get things done. So I think that, you know, being an entrepreneur is quite a humbling experience at times. And those verses have kind of kept me going.
Ken: Yeah. I love those verses and you know, I think that even if you’re not religious, I think that, you know, being an entrepreneur, there’s a certain level of faith and just, you know, sort of, just faith in the future that, things will work out and that, you will figure it out, you know?
Ken: And that things will be okay. So yeah, I think that’s great. Yeah. The uncertainty, especially of these last couple of years, has been kind of rough, and I could see how those words can kind of anchor you a little bit. So, well, let’s talk about this previous career and you know, just a little bit about, your background.
Ken: You know, and obviously, we’re hearing, an accent, so, where are you from and what did you do before you launched your brand.
Nona: I know right sometimes it’s almost kinda like what is a microaggression? They say, where are you from, where are you really coming from? But in this instance, it is absolutely legitimate because I did grow up in Singapore.
Nona: That’s where I grew up. I went to school there and actually, moved to the Bay Area only in 2005. So I grew up in Singapore and spent eight years working in London, and there was management consulting. And then after that software consulting
Ken: Yeah. And did you pick up an accent when you were in London as well, or no?
Nona: Now, probably bits and pieces, like Singapore, we were an Ex-British colony.
Nona: And so, you know, a lot of the words may be, sounds a bit more British, like the Vase. Instead of Vase, you know, and probably eight years in London, I’ve picked up a little bit here and there. And so I think I just have just such a random accent now, but if you’ve ever been to Singapore, all your friends are Singaporean.
Nona: You probably would be able to tell them either from Singapore, Malaysia?
Ken: Got it. Okay. And so what kind of consulting did you say?
Nona: So I was a management consultant. And then after that, you know, during the whole Dotcom boom time, I went into software consulting. So we’ll be building all this, you know, first-generation large e-commerce platforms for kind of a big company back then.
Nona: And I was a project manager, an account manager, and I think those skills came in very handy when it comes to project management
Ken: Okay. Got it. And it was the connection to the Bay Area then?
Nona: Well, the connection a little bit, which is my husband whom I met in management consulting, was also with me in London and he wanted to move back to the US and he wanted to basically go back into management consulting before.
Nona: The Tech companies. And so the Bay Area is the perfect location for him. And so I moved, gave up my kind of a career in London and moved back, moved to the bay area. And it was like a brand new country, brand new beginning.
Ken: And, I read a little bit about on your bio that you were into fencing and that you were fencing competitively. Is that true?
Nona: Yeah, that is true. So when I first moved to the Bay Area, I picked up competitive fencing. I used to do it in Singapore in High school and College, but with a different weapon. And so I picked it up again right before moving to the Bay Area. And when I was trying to figure out what to do next, when we first moved here, I started fencing competitively, and represented Singapore in fencing.
Nona: And then, yeah, and I almost made the 2012 London Olympics.
Ken: Very cool. Ok, so you weren’t just dabbling, you’re pretty good..
Nona: Yeah, I was kind of a semi-professional, but not quite professional compared to, you know, all the, you know, the Russian, the Korean or the Chinese athletes who would train, you know, three times a day, six days a week. I wasn’t training quite at that level, I was probably training about four or five days a week in the evenings, while still trying to run a startup.
Ken: Got it. So, yeah. So let’s connect the dots then. So you moved to San Francisco, and your fencing, which led to launching your brand.
Nona: Yeah. So, you know, while I was fencing, I came up with what I thought was a great idea. So in 2006, I started the first meal kit delivery business. So, technically I created that category, you know, it was before like HelloFresh blue apron and all the rest, but I was kind of doing it as a side hustle.
Nona: So it was very localized. I didn’t go out and fundraise and we grew that business to, I would say, you know, like a seven-digit-figure business, for about six, seven years, fast forward to the London Olympics, missed getting into it. By one point I gave up and say, have a baby instead in 2013 and then decided to, you know, really look at where my business is at.
Nona: And at that point in time, I kind of figured out that, you know, I don’t know how scalable and sustainable slash profitable. That business is going to be, given the high customer acquisition costs, the churn ways, the logistics costs and so forth. So I’ve basically kind of pivoted and then launched the CPG business in 2014.
Nona: And that’s how the Nona Lim brand was born.
Ken: Okay. And so were you doing similar types of food when you were doing the meal kit delivery business?
Nona: You know, actually it was quite different. I would say that the pillars that drive my R and D have. I have always been the same, which is, you know, how can I create a product that tastes amazing.
Nona: Number one, number two is healthier and much better for you. And number 3 is much more convenient. So literally when I first started, you know, my meal kits would be, you know, things like while Alaskan salmon with miso dressing and soba noodles, right? So there was still kind of the Asian, influxion in the manual because of my palette.
Nona: And then I even created a, you know, a food-based detox program that was based on taking out all the common food allergens, So, it was much more broader. I would say manual selection. I had a whole bunch of Asian stuff. I had some more California cuisine. And then what happened is in 2014, when I first launched the CPG brand, I took some of the snacks, which were soups, in the program and launched with those because those have the best shelf life.
Nona: And then what happened was Whole Foods reached out to me or other, you know, I started pretty early on working with Whole Foods in a very small capacity, by connecting with the local forager back then, just in a Bay Era. And after working with them for a year or so, they reached out and said, Hey, you know, we really would like to get some fresh Asian noodles into Whole Foods.
Nona: You know, we like what we see in some of the Asian supermarkets, but you know, it’s not quite clean label. Is that something you could do for us? And so that was when I really kind of collaborated with Whole Foods and actually brought the very first, fresh rice noodles into Whole Foods into kind of the natural, grocery world. And you know, and then progressed from there.
Ken: Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. What kind of snacks were you, were you selling before?
Nona: So those one, like, right. Those like soup that my carrot ginger soup, you know, all the tomato Thai Basil. Right. So I had a bunch of soups, healthy soups that were gluten free vegan.
Nona: So those were the, were the ones that I launched with. And a couple of those are still, you know, products that we carry today. And then after that, when I launched the rice noodles, I felt that it might not be as accessible, you know, for mainstream Americans to know what to do with rice noodles. And so then I created a bunch of Asian bone broth to go with it back in 2014, like a, you know, a coconut line bone broth, which is really modeled after the Thai.
Nona: Soup, right. We have the Bellamy’s for bone broth, right? So I wanted to make it easy for consumers to enjoy at home. And that was back in 2014, 2015. So that was way before, kind of the whole bone broth. craze.
Ken: Right. okay. So obviously, you know, you’ve had quite a bit of success. You’ve been able to get into distribution, you know, not only in, in Whole Foods, but you’re in target.
Ken: I believe, I read that you were in Costco as well. You know, what are some of the other retailers that you work with?
Nona: You know, we work with a lot of natural independence as well. Like Bi-Rite, quickly, bold, you know, the regional, The original chains, like Fresh Time, Fresh Market, Wegmans.
Nona: And then we also worked in the last three years with a lot of the online grocery delivery partners. You know, like the imperfect foods of the world or fresh, direct or good days. And most recently was super excited that we won a competition that Kroger had, what they call a Go fresh and local accelerator program.
Ken: Yeah, tell us about that a little bit.
Nona: Yeah,
Ken: That’s not a small thing.
Nona: It’s super exciting because over a thousand brands applied for that program and this cuts across everything that is fresh, right? So they were looking at everything from deli to bakery, to specialty that all the cheeses and all the meats, to, you know, the pasta category to, produce category, so.
Nona: Just lots of different, basically every single category that is fresh. And that’s why so many brands applied for it. And we will, one of the finalists and went to Kroger for a pitch competition, kind of like a very shocked 10, like, and we were one of the five winners. It’s super exciting because, one of the challenges that we’ve had in the past is always, has always been around where do you find our products?
Nona: And that’s always kind of challenged with being innovative, in a way. Well, we were so innovative and we created a brand new category. We’ve become a category of one, right? So when you are a category of one, which we set the, you go to, you know, which buyer do you go to? And so, you know, I think that Kroger really recognizes that our products are innovative and also very much on trend, especially at the intersection of many major trends.
Nona: You know, whether it is around a fresh, as a growing trend, cooking at home, continuing to be a huge trend, even after the pandemic or, you know, finally the, the rising trend in the last few years in the popularity of Asian flavors and Asian foods. And so they really embraced us. And so to win that competition, it’s just such a good affirmation.
Ken: Oh, nice. Yeah. And so, what does that mean for your business? You know, after you win this competition, you know, does it open any doors or, you know, what does it do?
Nona: Yeah, you know, it gives us the, you know, access to all 2000 Kroger stores, you know, to work with them, not just on distribution, but also to work with them on thoughtful merchandising locations, which is key for a product to be successful. And it comes with a lot of marketing opportunities as well, you know, to be highlighted and featured whether it is in their magazine or social media or email marketing, all of those. And they make a huge difference, right.
Nona: To small brands that cannot really afford to spend a lot, in the marketing programs to start with all of those, you know, I think brand awareness is just the biggest thing that you could do to help a small brand, especially for us, because well, we’ve had customers try our products. We usually, we almost always convert them and, you know, over an, a repeat purchase is really high.
Nona: You know, our challenge in the past has always been, how do we make sure that the consumer knows that we exist? Right. So I think that winning this competition to make sure that we’re placed in the right place, and to have the marketing support behind it, just increases so much of your chances of success.
Ken: Yeah, that’s awesome. And that was what about a month ago?
Nona: Yeah, that was about a month and a half ago.
Ken: Okay. Well, congratulations. That’s awesome. Yeah. So, let’s talk just a little bit about the supply chain issues that you talked about, at the top of the show, you know, I guess, like everybody else, you’re experiencing some of the challenges that go with all the supply chain issues.
Ken: Right, and so maybe you can double click on that and tell us a little bit about how it’s been, for your company and, you know, some of the things that you’re doing about it.
Nona: Yeah absolutely, everyone is facing the same challenges, right? Anything ocean freight, you know, has been, first of all, ocean freight has gone from like, you know, things from, we have some noodles that come from Singapore that have gone from four weeks to maybe eight weeks. At the same time, it’s almost impossible to book a container.
Nona: Like literally there’s no vacancy. And then on top of that, you know, prices have easily gone up from $4,000 for a 40 foot refrigerated container to as much as $20,000 for a 40 foot container. Right? So you have all of those challenges, which is, you know, delay, timing, increased cost availability. And this translates into not just, you know, increased costs, but also the strain on working capital and then our fill rate as well.
Nona: Right. So all of those things are just. Impact on us and then domestically, you know, there are increased calls, in materials as well, right? In, with, paper calls going up. It’s a national paper shortage right now, which impacts packaging. And LTL is also quite a nightmare where, you know, we have had some instances where our carriers will have a moratorium going into the lanes on the east coast.
Nona: Like literally they’re not accepting anymore loads. Right. So how are we going to deliver to our distributors, on the east coast? So all of those have been, I was in front and center and picked up a big part of my attention to make sure that we can navigate through all of these challenges.
Ken: Yeah. I mean, it’s a struggle and everybody, I think, is doing the best that they can. So it looks like you guys raised some money a little bit earlier this year. Was it, in part, motivated by some of the supply chain issues?
Nona: Actually, we’ve raised back in 2017 to help fuel the growth. And then we’ve raised some, you know, over the years with comfortable notes, mostly from existing investors to help manage all of that. Right. I think we’ve really used a combination of a few different financing options. To really help, manage the business.
Nona: Certainly, you know, I think equity with, in terms of pure equity or comfortable notes, or have been an instrument that we’ve used, but also, you know, Aero lending as well, and really working with, our AR lender. To make sure that, you know, we have access to that capital for working capital publicists has been extremely important.
Nona: And then finally, you know, I’m just grateful that there have been some of these programs from the government. The F also really been impactful for us as well, but you know, like the PPP and things like that.
Ken: Yeah, looks like, maybe my notes are a little bit wrong there. So, yeah.
Ken: Let’s, I guess let’s talk a little bit, a little bit more about that. I mean, so there’s obviously all these, these strains in the supply chain right now, you know, what’s, what’s your outlook, you know, how do you think this gets better? Or do you see us, kind of facing a lot of these challenges, for a while to come still.
Nona: You know, I’ve just heard different things from different people, right? It seems as if, you know, some have said the ocean freight, those challenges might go all the way till, you know, Q2 next year, you know, some have said that it might even go on till, you know, Q1 of 2023. There are many who have said that, you know, prices will probably come down from that crazy high, but it’s not going to be as low as, where it has been.
Nona: Right. So, I think that we’re definitely looking at ocean freight. That’s a big piece of it. And also looking at our longterm manufacturing strategy. We do make some of our products in house, in Oakland, California. And so then understanding where we’re going to manufacture, how we’re going to do that for the long-term is something we look at, we’ve also been, you know, even with our.
Nona: Suppliers in Asia we’ve been looking at, how can we make sure that that’s redundancy? How do we, how can we make sure that there’s additional capacity? So a lot of it honestly has been a lot of risk management. This is where my kind of software project management background has come in really.
Nona: Helpful by looking at them, looking at all the so many different interconnected pieces and just thinking that, you know, pray for the best of all, you know, hope for the best, but assume the worst and, really having a lot of plan B and C and D in place, just to, you know, in case something falls apart and.
Nona: Well more often than not things fall apart in the world of operations. So it’s just having a lot of Plan B’s, C’s, D’s in place.
Ken: Okay. Got it. And you mentioned that, you do manufacture some in-house, which of your products do you do in house?
Nona: All of our liquid items. So, you know, the bone broth and the soup that you see, whether there’s cups of punctures and things like that. So we do all of that. In-house.
Ken: And what was it, you know, what was the impetus for that? I mean, did you know when you launched it, did you think about, I guess, did you originally launched doing it in-house or did you ever use a manufacturer for that or, you know, what were your thoughts about bringing that into.
Nona: You know, honestly, because as I mentioned earlier, right, which is, I started off with a meal kit delivery business. And so that is something, you know, we had to deal with hundreds of different recipes that were just so much going on and so much complexity with that business that is not possible to.
Nona: Co-pack with anyone else. And so I’ve had a facility from that part of the business, and then when we expanded and, you know, launched the soups, which was next on the program, we were already making those. Right, but of course it became much easier to just bring in some second-hand equipment. Because the soup equipment is not that expensive and that’s why we did it that way.
Nona: And it was more kind of, I would say legacy right from where the business evolved. We did look in the past, you know, at, co-packing a couple of times at different parts of the, different times of the business and we found that it wasn’t. As cost effective. And we could also maintain the quality and consistency, you know, but I, I’m not necessarily, wedded to making it all myself.
Nona: I think it all depends. Right, on so many different things. When I think about, you know, contract manufacturing, business, in-house manufacturing, which is what is.
Ken: Yeah. And maybe we can double-click on a couple of those things, right. So what are the factors that you would consider, you know, and what might tip the scale to, to make you go to a co-packer or, you know, what might keep you doing it in house?
Ken: You know, cause I, you know, the reason I bring this up is it’s something that a lot of people have on their mind, you know, particularly with all the challenges with the supply chain. You know, people are considering, Hey, do I need to manufacture this in house? Do I need to bring this a little closer?
Ken: You know, so what are some of the things that you consider when making that decision.
Nona: Yeah. You know, absolutely. I think that the upside of having manufactured, you know, of manufacturing those products in-house during the pandemic was that we were very agile so that we could really make smaller batches than maybe a typical co-packer would want.
Nona: And so then we were able to really manage working capital and just have three, four weeks off. I am on hand, and pivot very quickly based on what’s happening in the market. So that was definitely a huge advantage for us. Right. But when I look at a product and if I were to look at it, you know, I was looking, I was talking to another brand that did, maybe plant-based.
Nona: Protein items, which is kind of a big trendy thing. Right. I look at it. Number one, there is that a lot of spare capacity in the market, right? If there’s already a lot of spare capacity in the market, do you want to invest in a lot of that equipment that you need right. To make it yourself because the capital investment could be significant, but again, also, like what is the capital investment needed for your specific product?
Nona: Right? Because of some packaging lines. So much money that it might not be worth it. And so, you know, what is the IP right? What’s the technology behind it? You know, soups actually, it’s not that difficult to make, right. Versus something. If you’re making it feel beyond me or impossible foods, and you’re trying to be at the cutting edge and you’re coming up with really specialized in all manufacturing, I would say manufacturing processes that co-packers just don’t know how to make any of you consider that to be really a big part of your competitive advantage.
Nona: You may not want to outsource that to a co-packer. And then of course there’s always the, you know, the quality of the consistency, right? If you outsource to a co-packer, can you get the quality of the consistency that you want? And then the pricing as well, like what kind of gross margins can you get? Right.
Nona: It’s always a balance of both in terms of gross margin and capital investment, and really measuring those and deciding what works best, and then finally, you know, I think that, well, they can find a good co-packer right. A really good co-packer that you can build a really strong relationship with and have a really good contract in place with, and of course for co-packer what their minimums, but because if they are very high minimums and you have a short shelf life and you don’t have yet the distribution, then you know, you’re going to end up having a lot of spoils.
Nona: Right. So, those are some of the things I think they’re just so many different factors that you have to consider, and it’s not kind of a magic bullet and so forth for every brand, they have to decide based on their own unique circumstance.
Ken: Yeah. Well, that’s excellent. So let’s, I guess let’s talk about Nona Lim.
Ken: What’s, coming up, you know, in the future rest of the year, you know, coming up, do you have anything exciting that you could tell us about?
Nona: Sure, absolutely. So in all this year, we launched our stuff price starter kits. We launched them at Kickstarter and it got funded within a day and was selected by kickstart as one of the projects.
Nona: We love. And, and this is really exciting because they only do that for like 3% of all the projects that they have on the platform. So for us, that was kind of a first good indicator that, you know, there’s something in that. Right. And the fact that we were able to, when the Kroger competition with those products and also go to the Costco rotation with one of the skews as well, has been very affirming in which we believe that.
Nona: Kind of our mission and vision staff currently, it’s definitely resonating with both the industry and with the consumer, which is we want to make, you know, fresh Asian products that still tastes really awesome. But, you know, it’s clean, labeled better for you and in a way that is accessible for mainstream Americans, right?
Nona: It’s easy for you to put together for you to have dinner at home. You know, our goal is to make it, every household to have a kind of a noodle night so the way you will have a pizza night on a Friday, or you have a taco. Tuesday is, you have a noodle night, Monday, or something like that. And so to that, you know, we’re continuing to innovate and create a bunch of different, you know, kids that will allow consumers to easily enjoy any Asian dinners, Asian for that home.
Ken: Well, sign me up. That sounds amazing. I love you. I’ve got five kids and I think all of them would agree, which is, which is pretty hard to do in my household. So.
Nona: That keeps you busy. I’m impressed
Ken: Well, let’s, let’s switch to the quickfire round. I’ve got four questions for you. And just tell me kind of the first answer that comes to mind.
Ken: What is one tool or resource that you feel is invaluable to you?
Nona: Gosh, Google sheets.
You know, it’s funny how much that answer comes up, but yes, I agree actually within my business. So, what about a book? Do you have a book recommendation that you could make for the audience?
Nona: Unfortunately. No, not right now. I’ve been so mired in crisis management. I’ve had no time to read.
Nona: Yeah, but that’s okay. Let’s skip that one. What about one piece of advice that you could give to your 21 year old self?
Nona: EQ is as important as IQ. If not more important.,
Ken: That’s a good one. Yeah. Who is one person in your field of work that you would love to take to launch?
Nona: Ooh, it might field of work
Ken: Yeah, maybe another entrepreneur or another brand that you keep an eye on, you know, is there anybody that you
Nona: I’ve managed a hub D from Chobani and I had the privilege of spending an hour with him, as part of the one-on-one as part of the Chobani incubator companies a few years ago.
Nona: And it’s just been such an amazing experience. I would love to take him to launch..
Ken: And, if somebody wanted to reach out to you, or your brand, what’s the best way to do that?
Nona: I’m old fashioned. So email’s the best nona@nonalim.com.
Ken: Okay. And, any parting advice to any other, you know, food entrepreneurs out there that are in the grind that are trying to grow their brand, you know, what’s some parting advice that you would give them.
Nona: Gosh. Your ability to endure pain will help shape the kind of entrepreneur that you are. So, hang in there.
Nona: And you know, it doesn’t matter how successful anyone looks out there. Everyone goes through a ton of pain. You just have to hang in there.
Ken: That’s great. And that’s a good note to end on. It actually reminds me of something that Elon Musk says, you know, he says that an entrepreneur is somebody who enjoys chewing on glass and enjoys the taste of their own blood. Right. Like it’s just entrepreneurship can be very, very painful,
Ken: So. Yup. And also, yeah, the other note, which is incredibly rewarding. Right. so. All right. Nona. Well, thank you for the interview. I think you’ve been a great guest. I especially appreciate, you know, you, talking to us about your supply chain, you know, the way your mindset around the supply chain and then also, you know, some of your thinking around, you know, whether to bring something in house and produce it in-house or to use a co-packer, you know, I think that that was really, really helpful for the entrepreneurs out there, so I appreciate it.
Nona: Absolutely.
Ken: All right. Yeah. best of luck.
Ken: Physical Product Movement Podcast is brought to you by Fiddle to find out more about Fiddle and how our industry leading inventory ops platform is giving modern brands and manufacturers full visibility into their inventory and operations. Visit fiddle.io, and then make sure to search for Physical Product Movement in Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google podcasts, or anywhere else, podcasts are found. Make sure to click subscribe. So you don’t miss any future episodes on behalf of the team here at Fiddle. Thanks for listening.
